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New white oak floor

This topic contains 91 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  smallerstick 3 months, 4 weeks ago.

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  • #629593

    smallerstick
    Pro
    Listowel, ON

    So, I’m planning a new hardwood floor. The subfloor is 1 1/2″ pine t & g with 1/2″ painted plywood on top. I will be using 15# felt under the hardwood.

    The new wood is rough sawn now and partially air dried. It will be kiln dried and milled probably in the next month or so. Rough size is 1 x 6 x 8, 10 and 12′. Finished will be 5 1/2″ with some 4 1/2″ depending on yield from the rough stock.

    Question for the flooring pros…. do I need to screw and plug end joints? Ends will be simply butted with a 1º bevel; no t & g end joints. Any cautions, advice is welcome.

    Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without loss of enthusiasm.
    ...... Winston Churchill

    #629598

    kurt@welkerhomes.com
    Pro
    Owatonna, MN - Minnesota

    are the side joints going to be T & G, IF so, why not the ends?

    #629600

    smallerstick
    Pro
    Listowel, ON

    are the side joints going to be T & G, IF so, why not the ends?

    Sides will be t & g but the mill is not set up for ends.

    Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without loss of enthusiasm.
    ...... Winston Churchill

    #629601

    So, I’m planning a new hardwood floor. The subfloor is 1 1/2″ pine t & g with 1/2″ painted plywood on top. I will be using 15# felt under the hardwood.

    The new wood is rough sawn now and partially air dried. It will be kiln dried and milled probably in the next month or so. Rough size is 1 x 6 x 8, 10 and 12′. Finished will be 5 1/2″ with some 4 1/2″ depending on yield from the rough stock.

    Question for the flooring pros…. do I need to screw and plug end joints? Ends will be simply butted with a 1º bevel; no t & g end joints. Any cautions, advice is welcome.

    Dont forget to let it acclimate in the space it will be installed if you can

    #629606

    WoodsConstruction
    Pro
    Sudbury, ON

    I’m no expert, since I’ve only installed about a dozen hardwood floors, but i think making yourself a little jig to drill and dowel would give you a cleaner look. By the time your done plugging your screws it would probably be the same amount of time in terms of additional labour.

    #629608

    Or get those snap off screws they make to fix squeaky floors. Work very well

    https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B00GO86RNQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1495740664&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=floor+squeak+repair+kit&dpPl=1&dpID=412sfgfo80L&ref=plSrch

    Smaller hole to patch than a countersink

    #629613

    smallerstick
    Pro
    Listowel, ON

    I’m no expert, since I’ve only installed about a dozen hardwood floors, but i think making yourself a little jig to drill and dowel would give you a cleaner look. By the time your done plugging your screws it would probably be the same amount of time in terms of additional labour.

    I like that idea although I can cut face grain plugs; dowels would be end grain.

    Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without loss of enthusiasm.
    ...... Winston Churchill

    #629614

    KeeganC
    Pro
    Bloomington, IN

    I’ll preface by saying that I’m no hardwood flooring expert either. But I have seen that the wider plank red oak floors can have a tendency to cup. Not sure if white oak is more stable, but at 4.5″ and 5.5″ boards I would personally screw and plug them. I’ll also say that I actually like the look of plugs, I think it gives woodwork a sort of nautical boatbuilder touch. I would even consider using a contrasting species for the plugs to make them stand out….. but that’s just me, not everyone’s cup of tea I’m sure. Or you could of course grain match them and try to make them blend in.

    ^^ I think woods might’ve meant doweling the end grain of the flooring as you might for face frame construction, that’s how I read it anyway.

    #629615

    kurt@welkerhomes.com
    Pro
    Owatonna, MN - Minnesota

    1 degree does not seem like much of a scarf joint to account for shrinkage. I think I would set up a router and cut a spline joint or something in the ends or make my own tong and grove. With the width and length of the pieces you will have, It would not be a lot of cutting.

    #629621

    KeeganC
    Pro
    Bloomington, IN

    1 degree does not seem like much of a scarf joint to account for shrinkage. I think I would set up a router and cut a spline joint or something in the ends or make my own tong and grove. With the width and length of the pieces you will have, It would not be a lot of cutting.

    Good thoughts. Maybe you could also just have the biscuit joiner out and put a pair in each butt joint, leave them dry no glue. Eh, rethinking that as I type, biscuit slots are a little too sloppy in fit for this application, probably wouldn’t do much.
    I like that idea of a router with a slot cutter, run both ends and spline them.

    #629624

    Doobie
    Pro
    Ajax, ON

    1 degree does not seem like much of a scarf joint to account for shrinkage. I think I would set up a router and cut a spline joint or something in the ends or make my own tong and grove. With the width and length of the pieces you will have, It would not be a lot of cutting.

    That’s what I would be doing. (Not a flooring expert, but that makes the most sense.)

    Alternately, the face screw and plug solution.

    Butt end joinery other than a t&g or spline is apt to potentially still cup. I just wouldn’t take the chance myself.

    Kevin.

    Support your local VIKING.

    #629633

    smallerstick
    Pro
    Listowel, ON

    I’ll preface by saying that I’m no hardwood flooring expert either. But I have seen that the wider plank red oak floors can have a tendency to cup. Not sure if white oak is more stable, but at 4.5″ and 5.5″ boards I would personally screw and plug them. I’ll also say that I actually like the look of plugs, I think it gives woodwork a sort of nautical boatbuilder touch. I would even consider using a contrasting species for the plugs to make them stand out….. but that’s just me, not everyone’s cup of tea I’m sure. Or you could of course grain match them and try to make them blend in.

    ^^ I think woods might’ve meant doweling the end grain of the flooring as you might for face frame construction, that’s how I read it anyway.

    1 degree does not seem like much of a scarf joint to account for shrinkage. I think I would set up a router and cut a spline joint or something in the ends or make my own tong and grove. With the width and length of the pieces you will have, It would not be a lot of cutting.

    I did misread the dowel solution, my bad. The spline makes the most sense. It would be a good place for the Colt. I have done some recutting of grooves on the ends of hardwood flooring with good success, just never considered splines. Thanks for that. I had intended the 1º to keep the joint as tight as possible on the face, not to be a scarf.

    I know that drilling and plugging is a lot of work but the appearance is somehow appealing to the detail loving creature living inside me lol

    Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without loss of enthusiasm.
    ...... Winston Churchill

    #629654

    Doobie
    Pro
    Ajax, ON

    In my mind, you could maybe still use dowels or biscuits or even better would be Dominos, but spaced fairly closely together. You simply don’t want what may be two butt ended pieces that want to cup to be able to cup. You are looking to keep the integrity along the edge of the butt ended pieces from being able to do so. But with some of those alternatives, unless you also glue the butt faces also, it may not work with the exception of using Dominos that also offer some vertical plane strength due to their linear nature along. Still, even Dominos may not even be sufficient.

    Dowels, biscuits and regular Dominos are made of beechwood. Beechwood is very moisture sensitive and has very poor shear strength which is what they would be mostly subject to in such an application although you could use much more expensive SIPO/Mahogany Dominos that are generally intended for outdoor projects. Theirs alos the risk the beechwood expands to the point that they either radiate onto the surface. Softer woods are more prone to this effect, hardwoods are less apt, but instead, can cause splitting along the end instead which is worse. You didn’t mention what wood you were having milled.

    With making T&G or spline it will offer the best assurance of stability over what may be also be the added need to glue the face of the butt ends, which in itself can lead to other problematic issues. Wood expansion/contraction happens mostly along the width and not to its length. Don’t confuse seasonal gaping that we see can happen to laminate flooring where the pieces on their butt ends have separation on the butt ends. Solid wood doesn’t perform the same with seasonal changes. Length contraction/expansion is very minimal, but in hardwood flooring, and again I’m not the expert but very well read, I wouldn’t chance it anyways with gluing up the butt ends in joinery over long stretches that you are dealing with. Also don’t confuse it with man-made flooring in a sense like plastic/PVC/Trex lumber used for decking. That stuff does expand along its length A LOT, and proper gaping of butt ends is necessary.

    It’s hard for anybody to advise on this kind of thing in some respects. Reason being is that we all live in different climes. What may work for one guy with a said wood, doesn’t work for another guy in another part of the country/world due to the environment he is located in. It’s also a variable of the wood you are using. That same species of wood you have, may not be quite the same as that species your neighbor used with success in the same way he applied it. Sometimes it can boil down to how do you acclimatize your house or how efficient your HVAC system is from season to season. Natural woods are a strange hit and miss sensitive beast in that regard.

    Should you do trying to T&G the butt ends, which is where I’d be leaning to, is another tricky option. You don’t do it right, you’ll end up with unsightly tearout. Sacrificial pieces in doing so are likely necessary in whatever method you use. It somewhat depends on what equipment you have on hand. I would think setting up a purposed jig of some sort using a router is the most likely/practical. Don’t ask me what setup you need for that option. Me, I’d be looking at a T&G bit to do in one pass. Whether I could do it on my Jessem is another question. I’m somewhat lost on this option and its execution as I’ve never done it before with such longish pieces that need their butt ends detailed as such repeatedly such as in your case would be needed.

    FWIW, and I hope my thoughts on this issue further help you decide what to do to ensure a good result for your project. I would just hate to put down some beautiful milled floor boards in some manner only to find it has to be all torn up and redone because it was done wrong to start with. Good luck!

    Kevin.

    Support your local VIKING.

    #629680

    @doobie

    Looks like the site ate your long post. I have it in an email alert if you want it back up

    #629683

    roninohio
    Pro
    New Franklin, OH

    I would rout a t&g on them yourself. Wouldn’t be that much extra work.

    #629685

    I would rout a t&g on them yourself. Wouldn’t be that much extra work.

    Or have a yard run that pattern for you. Not too expensive

    #629711

    Doobie
    Pro
    Ajax, ON

    @doobie

    Looks like the site ate your long post. I have it in an email alert if you want it back up

    I know. I kinda gave up at the time trying to get it up. I’m sure it’s some kind of intended spam control. It was the 4th or 5th time I was tweaking it via edits in a short span which is what probably caused that to happen. I kept a copy also and will try to post it up later. I’m gonna tag Jim and see if he wants to investigate and/or restore my last draft from his end.

    @bethepro

    Kevin.

    Support your local VIKING.

    #629731

    WoodsConstruction
    Pro
    Sudbury, ON

    I’m no expert, since I’ve only installed about a dozen hardwood floors, but i think making yourself a little jig to drill and dowel would give you a cleaner look. By the time your done plugging your screws it would probably be the same amount of time in terms of additional labour.

    I like that idea although I can cut face grain plugs; dowels would be end grain.

    I was thinking of dowels laterally sunk an inch or so into the ends.

    #629734

    bethepro
    Keymaster
    Mt Prospect, IL

    @doobie, send me what you want to post in a Word doc. I may be able to get it up on the site that way.

    Have a great weekend.

    Jim

    Email us at bethepro@bethepro.com

    #629737

    Doobie
    Pro
    Ajax, ON

    @doobie, send me what you want to post in a Word doc. I may be able to get it up on the site that way.

    Have a great weekend.

    Jim

    When I get on my desktop, I’ll give it another try Jim. Maybe the block has cleared by now, but if it hasn’t I’ll fire it off to you.

    Typically I’ve seen this when there are links in a post. But this one didn’t have any links, just a long winded Doobie. Lol!

    Kevin.

    Support your local VIKING.

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