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Metal work questions

This topic contains 155 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  MTRoads 3 weeks, 5 days ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 81 through 100 (of 156 total)
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  • #709301

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    Worked on another leaf today, slightly smaller than the last one.

    Feeling like I need to find another way to ‘attach’ the stem to the leaf. I am thinking about oxy/acetylene with a torch to braze it in. That way I can fill in the entire ‘fold’ that the stem fits into and grind it flush before shaping the leaf.

    Will be trying to fill in the fold with the Mig welder first on the next one just to see how that goes before I make a decision on another ‘tool’ for the shop. 🙂

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #709306

    CB
    Pro

    I’ve only been glancing at this thread, not following too closely, but your most recent 2 posts above caught my attention.

    It sounds like you are trying to introduce enough heat into your puddle in the fold of the leaf to meld in the (relatively) solid thick spoke without burning holes through (comparatively) thin tinny leaf sheet metal? Do I understand your intent correctly?

    And most recently, you were thinking of “filling in” the centerfold of the leaf first, and then introducing the spoke stem? Is that your proposal?

    Before trying that, and before buying on OA rig, how about PRE HEATING the end of the bike spoke with a self standing MAP gas torch until it is dull cherry red, and then laying that hot red spoke into the leaf fold, and then start your mig torch arc at the tip of the hot spoke in the middle of the leaf, and direct your arc energy toward the “stem” of the leaf, so that your puddle flows toward the stem, and you can break the arc once you are off the leaf?

    The dull cherry red pre heated spoke will accelerate it’s melt rate relative to the thin leaf, which will make the spoke capitulate into the puddle much faster, before the leaf has a chance to burn through. I’m not a professional welder, but I’ve done plenty of selective “pre heating cheating” with success in welding materials with dissimilar thicknesses.

    #709320

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    @cb,
    Your assumptions on what I am trying to do are mostly correct. Yes, I am having issues with the bicycle spoke not melding into the puddle due to it’s makeup. I haven’t had too much of a problem with burning through the sheet metal so far – just one small hole I had to repair.

    The suggestion you make of pre-heating the spoke sounds like a great idea, will have to try that on the next leaf.

    As far as the filling in the fold, it is mainly for the look of the leaf. That ‘channel’ that is empty from the end of the stem that is welded in to the tip of the leaf just looks…. strange. Thus the desire to fill it in completely.

    I am also ordering some smaller metal rods to use rather than the bicycle spokes to see if that helps (although pre-heating those would also seem to be a good idea).

    Thanks much for the suggestions.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #709434

    GTokley
    Pro
    Madoc, ON

    Another larger leaf today. Starting to think I should use something other that the bicycle spikes for the stems. Seems like the settings on the welder are fine for the sheetmetal but not hot enough for the spokes.
    Can’t see much of the shape of the leaf from the picture, will have to try something else later.

    This leaf looks pretty good. Sounds like the bike spoke is a lot harder steel.

    Greg

    instagram.com/gregtokley/

    #709441

    Sprokitz
    Pro
    Eastern shore of, Pa

    Worked on another leaf today, slightly smaller than the last one.

    Feeling like I need to find another way to ‘attach’ the stem to the leaf. I am thinking about oxy/acetylene with a torch to braze it in. That way I can fill in the entire ‘fold’ that the stem fits into and grind it flush before shaping the leaf.

    Will be trying to fill in the fold with the Mig welder first on the next one just to see how that goes before I make a decision on another ‘tool’ for the shop. 🙂

    Why the fold ? Are your spokes chrome plated ? How are you shaping the raised sections between the veins ?

    #709456

    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    That is basically the idea of brazing, joining 2 dissimilar materials that re difficult to weld in a situation not requiring high strength.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    #709465

    smallerstick
    Pro
    North Bay, ON

    Why the fold ? Are your spokes chrome plated ? How are you shaping the raised sections between the veins ?

    Good point about the chrome plating, that would cause some welding problems. I expect the spokes are carbon steel at least if not an alloy steel.

    Your suggestion of oxy-acet brazing has merit, too. That would overcome the chrome issue and the burn through.

    There are only two ways to do things; the right way and again.

    #709534

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    @gtokley, Yeah – agree that the difference in hardness seems to be part of the issue in welding the two pieces together.

    @sprokitz, the fold is just the way I saw some done on youtube videos – so I am going the same direction. As for the spokes being chrome plated – I’m not sure on that. But now that you mention it, that sounds plausible as they typically do not rust. Shaping of the leaves is being done with various size ball peen hammers.

    @theamcguy – yep, brazing is going to be one of the next steps in the learning scheme of things.

    @smallerstick, I have a few different things I’ll be trying. One is brazing, another is pre-heating as mentioned above and I will be ordering some mild steel rods that are used for Radio Control projects from amazon (see if those work better).

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #709535

    GTokley
    Pro
    Madoc, ON

    @gtokley, Yeah – agree that the difference in hardness seems to be part of the issue in welding the two pieces together.

    I just did alittle Google search and found this:
    The spoke material is an 18/10 stainless steel, and we were told that there’s nothing proprietary about the alloy used.

    Greg

    instagram.com/gregtokley/

    #709572

    Sprokitz
    Pro
    Eastern shore of, Pa

    @gtokley, Yeah – agree that the difference in hardness seems to be part of the issue in welding the two pieces together.

    I just did alittle Google search and found this:
    The spoke material is an 18/10 stainless steel, and we were told that there’s nothing proprietary about the alloy used.

    Not all spokes are stainless

    #709637

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    @gtokley, Yeah – agree that the difference in hardness seems to be part of the issue in welding the two pieces together.

    I just did alittle Google search and found this:
    The spoke material is an 18/10 stainless steel, and we were told that there’s nothing proprietary about the alloy used.

    Greg, thanks for that info. I’m hoping the rods I ordered from Amazon will make it a bit easier to weld them to the sheet metal.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #709660

    GTokley
    Pro
    Madoc, ON

    Greg, thanks for that info. I’m hoping the rods I ordered from Amazon will make it a bit easier to weld them to the sheet metal.

    Your welcome! I hope the rods you ordered help too.

    Greg

    instagram.com/gregtokley/

    #709962

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    Greg, thanks for that info. I’m hoping the rods I ordered from Amazon will make it a bit easier to weld them to the sheet metal.

    Your welcome! I hope the rods you ordered help too.

    Found something to work with on a trial basis while waiting for the order of 2mm rod to arrive. Went to Lowe’s today and picked up the small portable Oxy/Acetylene setup – while I was there I noticed the small warning flags that they stick in the ground indicating various items.
    There are 15 in each bundle for $4.xx (forget the exact price). I can see where these pieces could be used in various areas of the deck gate project so I picked up a couple bundles.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #710191

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    Ok, so I have a question for those of you with Oxy/Acetlyene setups.

    I bought a small setup from Lowe’s a couple days ago, oxygen tank is 20 CF and the Acetylene tanks is 10 CF. So I stopped by a local welding place to get the tanks filled. While I was there I picked up a pound of RG45 1/16″ welding rod.

    They did not fill the brand new tanks I brought in (Lincoln Electric brand setup), but rather just exchanged the bottles.

    My question is… I looked at the receipt when I got home.
    $16.60 for 20CF Oxygen
    $20.00 for 10CF Acetylene
    $05.20 for 1lb of 1/16″ RG45 Rod
    $09.75 Hazardous Material Fee
    $02.44 Fuel Surcharge
    $03.75 Acetylene Requalification

    Are these charges (Hazmat fee, Fuel surcharge and tank requalification for new tanks brought in) normal – or did I get taken to the cleaners?

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #710597

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    That is basically the idea of brazing, joining 2 dissimilar materials that re difficult to weld in a situation not requiring high strength.

    The plan for today is to try a few different methods of attaching the stem rod to the leaf, brazing to be one of the options.
    Should be able to determine then which method will work best for the rest of the project.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #710707

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    And after melting a shaped leaf of 22ga sheetmetal into pretty much a blob of metal – it appears brazing will be the go-to option. Will be working on learning that today.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #710712

    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    And after melting a shaped leaf of 22ga sheetmetal into pretty much a blob of metal – it appears brazing will be the go-to option. Will be working on learning that today.

    LOL brazing is a lot easier than welding. It’s more like using brass like a high temp glue.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    #710739

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    Brazing didn’t happen today. Another lesson learned about welding – be sure you look at the packaging on the brazing rods. Turns out the ones I bought were for aluminum.
    They were the only brazing rods on the shelf at Lowe’s and I just grabbed a package. Will have to try and find some place this coming week that has the correct rods.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

    #711233

    GTokley
    Pro
    Madoc, ON

    Brazing didn’t happen today. Another lesson learned about welding – be sure you look at the packaging on the brazing rods. Turns out the ones I bought were for aluminum.
    They were the only brazing rods on the shelf at Lowe’s and I just grabbed a package. Will have to try and find some place this coming week that has the correct rods.

    That is too bad about getting the wrong rods.

    This got me to thinking when I took welding in High School. We started of doing fusion welding. We had to fusion weld to 2 pieces of light gauge metals together using oxy acetylene torch. If you melted too much of the metal away doing this . We would use a filler rod to fill in the gap.

    Greg

    instagram.com/gregtokley/

    #711283

    MTRoads
    Pro
    Near Glacier National Park, MT

    @gtokley, I had a major meltdown (literally) when I tried welding the stem to the sheet metal leaf. The sheet metal would go from a bit red to a big hole in a split-second.
    With more practice I might be able to control the heat better so that the two pieces can be welded without blowing holes.
    One step at a time though – brazing is next.

    Stan
    From the Northwest corner of Montana.

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