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Best Solution for this Mess?

This topic contains 30 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  theamcguy 4 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 31 total)
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  • #674058

    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN

    This probably belongs in the hack thread too….but I’m stuck figuring out a solution so I thought it deserved its own thread.

    How would you approach this? The concrete blocks are wide open aside from a poorly caulked chunk of 4×4 cut on a 45 over top.

    I’ll be residing two large areas like this, so it’s either fixing it now or hack it back together (which I have no interest in doing.)

    My initial thought is to block the holes 6-8″ down and fill them up with expansion foam before installing the 45* trim with the siding lapped Over the trim.

    Thoughts?
    Is foam sufficient or should I be using grout?

    Jon P.
    Timber Carpentry & Construction
    https://www.facebook.com/timbercarpentry/
    Instagram

    #674063

    CB
    Pro

    No matter what you use to fill the holes in the cinder blocks… foam, grout, concrete, pea gravel, etc… the bottom of the reverse board and batton plywood siding is still less than 6″ from the termite loving terrain of leaves and cellulous debris, from the appearance of the photo.

    Is the cinder block supposed to be some kind of perimeter foundation?

    Is this a habitable structure? Or just a garden shed of some kind?

    #674075

    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN

    This is around the garage on this home. The rest of the house is completely different.

    This is actually a block foundation wall( I can see about 4 feet down ). As soon for the siding, it will be held up a bit more than it currently is, but still behind the 4×4 piece….certainly not ideal.

    Jon P.
    Timber Carpentry & Construction
    https://www.facebook.com/timbercarpentry/
    Instagram

    #674079

    roninohio
    Pro
    New Franklin, OH

    I think I would cut the bottom of the siding and run some flashing.

    #674094

    Sprokitz
    Pro
    Eastern shore of, Pa

    but still behind the 4×4 piece….certainly not ideal.

    Why behind ? I ran into something similar. What I did was make a cant from 2x PT. Flashed from up on the wall, down the cant and over the edge of the block. I started the siding about a 1/2″ above the cant.
    If you use that T1-11 siding I strongly suggest you prime/paint all edges and about 2′ up the lower back side before install

    #674100

    RonW
    Pro
    Holladay, Tn

    I think I would cut the bottom of the siding and run some flashing.

    That’s what i was thinking after seeing the pic.

    Ron

    A Working Pro since 1994!

    Member since March 26, 2014.

    #674119

    Doobie
    Pro
    Ajax, ON

    I think I would cut the bottom of the siding and run some flashing.

    That’s what i was thinking after seeing the pic.

    I like that idea too. But flashing is gonna get dinged over time maybe pretty bad being down there near ground level. It’s just too low to the ground to begin with.

    I’ll be residing two large areas like this

    What are you residing with? T1-11 again?

    Another solution possibly is to take the existing T1-11 off, sister onto the existing studs new boards to build out the wall to be flush with the block, reapply the siding but now with the proper clearance to ground from the bottom of the T1-11 and add the flashing flush/flat at the bottom. It’s still not totally right, but way better than it was.

    The best solution would go one step further would be to hold/brace up the roof, chop the bottom off, add a row of solid block.

    Be nice if we saw the rest of the structure being dealt with. Some of these ideas may be obviously non-starters not knowing the whole picture.

    My initial thought is to block the holes 6-8″ down and fill them up with expansion foam

    I think whatever solution you decide, fill block those holes at least. Once you stop the weather from seeping in theblock openings, that would be mice heaven in no time.

    This probably belongs in the hack thread too…

    You’re too kind Jon….. It belongs in a ‘Bozo the Clown Builder’ thread.

    Kevin.

    Wannabee pro.

    #674144

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    I think I would cut the bottom of the siding and run some flashing.

    That’s what i was thinking after seeing the pic.

    I would flash too. Also filling the block with concrete would be a good idea.

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #674148

    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN

    but still behind the 4×4 piece….certainly not ideal.

    Why behind ? I ran into something similar. What I did was make a cant from 2x PT. Flashed from up on the wall, down the cant and over the edge of the block. I started the siding about a 1/2″ above the cant.
    If you use that T1-11 siding I strongly suggest you prime/paint all edges and about 2′ up the lower back side before install

    @sprokitz, I mistyped…the siding would no longer be running all the way to the top of the block. It would stop at the top of the 45* trim piece and have a matching 45* bevel on it. This would create a seamless look and serve as a kickout to keep water from penetrating between the siding and trim as it currently is.

    I think I would cut the bottom of the siding and run some flashing.

    That’s what i was thinking after seeing the pic.

    I like that idea too. But flashing is gonna get dinged over time maybe pretty bad being down there near ground level. It’s just too low to the ground to begin with.

    I’ll be residing two large areas like this

    What are you residing with? T1-11 again?

    Another solution possibly is to take the existing T1-11 off, sister onto the existing studs new boards to build out the wall to be flush with the block, reapply the siding but now with the proper clearance to ground from the bottom of the T1-11 and add the flashing flush/flat at the bottom. It’s still not totally right, but way better than it was.

    The best solution would go one step further would be to hold/brace up the roof, chop the bottom off, add a row of solid block.

    Be nice if we saw the rest of the structure being dealt with. Some of these ideas may be obviously non-starters not knowing the whole picture.

    My initial thought is to block the holes 6-8″ down and fill them up with expansion foam

    I think whatever solution you decide, fill block those holes at least. Once you stop the weather from seeping in theblock openings, that would be mice heaven in no time.

    This probably belongs in the hack thread too…

    You’re too kind Jon….. It belongs in a ‘Bozo the Clown Builder’ thread.

    Yes, it will be T1-11 again. Unfortunately, I can justify furring out the walls in question as it’s just not in the budget. The wall has the incoming telephone, cable and electrical service on it making things that much more complex.

    Here’s a picture of the full wall before I removed anything.

    Jon P.
    Timber Carpentry & Construction
    https://www.facebook.com/timbercarpentry/
    Instagram

    #674153

    Sprokitz
    Pro
    Eastern shore of, Pa

    filling the block with concrete would be a good idea.

    Other than adding to the cost I really don’t see any benefit to filling the block. Am I missing something ?

    #674154

    Doobie
    Pro
    Ajax, ON

    Yes, it will be T1-11 again. Unfortunately, I can justify furring out the walls in question as it’s just not in the budget. The wall has the incoming telephone, cable and electrical service on it making things that much more complex.

    Here’s a picture of the full wall before I removed anything

    That determines a lot.

    Kevin.

    Wannabee pro.

    #674155

    CB
    Pro

    but still behind the 4×4 piece….certainly not ideal.

    Why behind ? I ran into something similar. What I did was make a cant from 2x PT. Flashed from up on the wall, down the cant and over the edge of the block. I started the siding about a 1/2″ above the cant.
    If you use that T1-11 siding I strongly suggest you prime/paint all edges and about 2′ up the lower back side before install

    @sprokitz, I mistyped…the siding would no longer be running all the way to the top of the block. It would stop at the top of the 45* trim piece and have a matching 45* bevel on it. This would create a seamless look and serve as a kickout to keep water from penetrating between the siding and trim as it currently is.

    As cool and as tight as your 45 degree undercut of the bottom edge of your plywood panels sounds when flush fitted over a 45 degree cant, the siding will last longer with a capillary break, so my vote goes with the guys who suggested flashing, with at least a 1/4″, or up to a 1/2″ gap between the bottom of the siding and the top of the flashing where it banks outboard and away from the vertical siding plane to direct water sheeting down the wall over the cant and the “foundation”.

    That gap that they suggest serves as the capillary break that prevents the water from wicking up through the siding. It provides the air gap for water to drop out, rather than soak up from a saturated wood cant fitted in direct and tight and beautifully flush contact with wood siding. I just can’t see that arrangement lasting as long as a gap would.

    A 20 gauge flashing of bonderized galvanized steel would be a lot more dent resistant than 26 gauge steel, or aluminum. I use the thicker steel in the flashing I form up.

    Another issue that happens when cutting a 45 degree angle on the bottom of plywood siding is that it gets damaged during installation. The front face of the siding is reduced in thickness from a nominal 5/8″ down to 0″ (or some infinitesimally small number) at the apex of the upside down right triangle formed by the 45 degree bevel. And this zero inches is at the front face, which is the most visible… the defining line that terminates the siding… because naturally you want the PT cant underneath to drain out and downward.

    But any tool used to push the panel into place during installation will dent and damage that infinitesimally thin bottom edge… each layer of splintery plywood is thin enough as it is, at less than 1/8″. Now bevel that 1/8″ 45 degrees south, and any type of crow bar, block of wood, brick, board, or even the top of one’s boot will splinter that face layer of plywood as the panel is being jockeyed into position next the adjacent panel, to keep the grooves parallel to each other, and keep the bottoms level with each other.

    Run into a few snags, and the bottom beveled edge of the plywood, especially at that steep of an angle, starts looking pretty rough from handling. I have beveled the bottom edges of T1-11 for some installations, but only 15 degrees at most. Even then, the forward facing edge can get a little nicked at the bottom, as it takes the brunt of the entire weight of the panel as it is being jockeyed into place. By contrast, a square cut bottom better distributes the weight of the panel over whatever tool (foot, boot, prybar, hammer claw, whatever is handy) is being used to fight the pull of gravity before the first nail is set.

    #674156

    CB
    Pro

    Another thing about beveling the bottom of plywood siding. All the moisture on or in the panel, will flow to that narrow point. That front facing, steeply beveled layer at the bottom of the panel will be like the bottom of a funnel, where all the water inside and sheeting down the ouside will collect before dropping out of or off of the panel.

    By reducing the thickness of this collection point to near zero, the wood fibers thus exposed won’t have the support of other layers to share the moisture load leaving the panel.

    That being said, the bevel does help direct water away from the drain plane, which is the WRB underneath the siding. But as with all things, there is a balance of benefit and detriment to each deviation. Plywood siding is one of the tougher sidings to maintain, so finding a balance also includes avoiding dryrot developing from water concentrations at the very tip of the bottom of your bevel.

    #674157

    CB
    Pro

    If you use that T1-11 siding I strongly suggest you prime/paint all edges and about 2′ up the lower back side before install

    I always 6 side prime each panel. That means the full back side of the T1-ll panel gets primed, sometimes twice, not just the bottom two feet. The full length of all four edges also gets primed, along with any cut outs for lights, electrical, outdoor plumbing, windows, doors, etc.

    Six side prime. or as many facets and sides that the accumulation of cut outs on any give panel ends up being.

    Ive seen mold develop in the center of old panels that I’ve replaced, no where near the bottom edge.

    #674158

    CB
    Pro

    Just can’t sleep tonight… and seam to be on a tear on this siding thing. I don’t know what to say about that “foundation” because a hollow cinderblock wall is not a substantive element to tie a building down to in earthquake country. I am curious how that building is tied down, or what it is tied to… the hollow cinder block wall?

    On a side note (ha ha ha), that siding doesn’t look like T1-11 to me (ie 4″ or 8″ on center full face, 3/8″ groove). It looks more like reverse board and batten (12″ on center face, and a hecka wide 1.375″ to 1.5″ wide groove, lumber mill chamfer on the top layer depending).

    The difference between 8″ OC vs 12″ OC is significant, if the siding is also serving as a the sheathing with shear wall duty. If the studs are 16″ OC, the 8″ OC can land with the thick part over the stud, with only a 3/8″ wide groove, the thick part of two separate panels can be nailed into the stud that splits the difference between the two at their vertical seam, especially when double nailing (as opposed to a single row piercing through the ship lap joint) is required to meet wall bracing or shear wall requirements.

    The hecka wide groove in 12″ OC reverse board and batten is as wide as the stud. And obviously, a 12″ OC pattern only coincides with a 16″ OC stud pattern every 4 feet, at the panel edges. Mid field nailing will look awkward and inconsistently placed, compared to 8″ OC on a 16″ OC frame. But let’s assume no one is paying attention to where the nail heads are on the board faces… there is another concern with nailing RB&B… the groove thickness (as opposed to width) is only two full layers of a 5 layer plywood siding. The third layer is grooved within the groove, so isn’t a full thickness.

    For holding power, the nail shouldn’t nailed in the groove of the plywood that is less than half as thick as the majority of the panel. the relationship of the underside of the nail head to the panel face, and the forces that radiate from the nail head into the panel in radial distribution, means the best practice is to nail through the thick part. Only we can’t at the seam, because of the ship lap. The APA in this case recommends nailing the underlap first, and then offset nailing the overlap in the same row over the top.

    It could be argued that this isn’t as strong as what can be accomplished at the same vertical joint with a 3/8″ wide groove on 8″ OC T1-11, where the full thickness of each panel on either side of the vertical joint can be nailed into the stud that is split between them.

    #674211

    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN

    Valid point about cutting the bottom of the siding. I’m sure I would have realized that little issue as soon as I made the first cut.

    On a side note (ha ha ha), that siding doesn’t look like T1-11 to me (ie 4″ or 8″ on center full face, 3/8″ groove). It looks more like reverse board and batten (12″ on center face, and a hecka wide 1.375″ to 1.5″ wide groove, lumber mill chamfer on the top layer depending).

    I guess reverse board and batton is technically a better term for the siding. The thinner part is only 3/8″ thick (1 1/2″ wide) while the rest is 5/8″.

    Jon P.
    Timber Carpentry & Construction
    https://www.facebook.com/timbercarpentry/
    Instagram

    #674215

    kurt@welkerhomes.com
    Pro
    Owatonna, MN - Minnesota

    cut the siding off install a flashing and a PVC or vinyl filler below and seal well. I would probably put a flashing over the block and up the studs also. this will get you away from grade a=with a rot resistant material and channel all moisture to the outside.

    #674283

    Clev08
    Pro

    I have worked on a similar job replacing that type of siding on a garage that was too close to the ground and not painted or primed on anything but the front side. We used a PVC trim piece on the bottom and flashed the top of that before installing the new primed siding. As for the open block holes, I would not use foam, if any insect or rodent is trying to get somewhere foam is not going to stop them. Personally I would fill them most of the say with rock or dirt and fill the top couple inches with concrete. I think we also doubled up the studs where their were seams just so we could nail both pieces along the seams, but that might be overkill (something i’m a fan of doing).

    #674295

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    filling the block with concrete would be a good idea.

    Other than adding to the cost I really don’t see any benefit to filling the block. Am I missing something ?

    Yes,, it would keep rats and small animals from living in there. It would make it a lot stronger and also you could set J-bolts in it to hold down the wall.

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #674814

    ChadM
    Moderator
    East Palestine, Ohio

    Question – is the siding also the exterior sheeting?

    I am another advocate of flashing.I would flash down over the block (after filling with concrete/grout), add a PVC trim board to the bottom, flash the top of the PVC board, then set my new siding on top.

    Chad

    A Working Pro since 1993

    Member since 12/07/2013

    A Carpenter's Journal

    Housewright Construction

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