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Battery and Charger Interoperability Discussions

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  • #709361

    A common 18v battery platform isn’t even mandated within the same tool manufacturer:

    The new Craftsman line has the same problem. There are no less than 3 20V Craftsman tool lines and they all take a different battery. Talk about problems.

    That’s exactly what I was referring to earlier. I have no idea what they were thinking about.

    #709377
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Yet the piggy backed battery platform is more than half the engineering battle in winning the usability war.

    In the late ’80’s and early ’90’s, my basic drill kit always consisted of four drill motors, 2 corded, and 2 cordless. (This is not counting the specialty drill motors like right angle, Sioux close quarters, hammer drill, that were not always needed all the time).

    But I always had a Milwaukee 1/2″ low rpm high torque hole shooter, and a RED colored Makita 3/8″ high rpm low torque drill, both corded, simply because the battery operated tools of that period of time didn’t have the power or the run time to reliably complete all the tasks that needed doing. Yet the cordless was convenient on the ladder, so it was used where possible and not challenged by the material.

    In other words, the make or break efficacy in the cordless tools was not a function of the drill motors… it was a function of the battery power and longevity.

    So a buying decision based merely on an “individual tool’s functionality, usability, durability and not piggy backed on the handcuff which is the battery platform” ignores one of the most important elements that makes a battery tool functional, useable, and durable… that being it’s piggy backed battery system. The golden handcuffs.

    What if batteries were standardized 30 years ago? All brands of tools would be running 9.6v NiCds in an awkward long skinny shape, which was the most prevalent and dominant tool battery system at that time. But if it were not for a competitor changing the battery shape, we would not be able to stand a drill or a driver up on its handle… something that was impossible to do with the dominant battery that existed prior to the shape changing innovation.

    What if batteries were standardized 20 years ago, by this time all now in the rectangular shape that permits tools to stand up on their own handles. The dominant voltage of 20 years ago was 14.4v. and the dominant chemistry was NiMh. If this standard was universalized across all brands, what incentive would there have been for Makita to shake up the market by introducing Lithium Ion to battery tools?

    LiIon chemistry, in its various iterations, has proven to be so vastly superior in all the aspects that make cordless power tools functional and useable, it would have been a shame for a universal standard to have existed that would have hampered the faltering first steps of one company to break from the “pack” so to speak.

    The standardized battery pack would have prevented the lessons learned from too much heat, too much weight, too much bulk, and too long of charging times for the Milwaukee’s 28 volt and Makita’s 36 volt battery packs, systems that are both mothballed from further development in favor of the 18V iterations that are today’s dominant battery packs.

    So what about 10 years from now? What power densities will be achieved? What thermal operational envelopes will be opened? What possibilities, that are now being tested in labs, will eventually find themselves affixed to the ends of our tool handles.

    The stored energy density, charge rate, discharge rate, cycle life, thermal envelope, ability of the charge circuitry to balance individual cells within the pack… even the way in which the circuit board in the pack is powered (from all batteries or just one or two, where if the one or two batteries die, the entire pack is rendered useless)… these are all vastly variable factors in battery pack design. These are the areas where brand A differs from brand B.

    Without a doubt, an impact driver without a battery is a useless chunk of intricate plastic and metal. It has no value without power. The efficacy of the tool depends on the efficacy of the battery system it depends on, and there is a steady stream of continuous evolution in battery and charging systems that would make any standardization across all tool brands not only improbable, but also not in the best interest of advancing technology.

    I do not think standardization on batteries necessarily mean a freeze on advancement of battery technology.

    As you have already stated, many of the SBD brands can interchange their tools/batteries, and it seems some Bosch and Dremel 12V batteries can interchange with minor modifications. That seems to suggest that the reason to not having any standardization is profit motivated, not because standardization will hinder technology advancement.

    The road to standardization does not have to mean a single company making all the batteries for every brand. It simply means a way for users of different tool brands to be able to charge and use other brands’ batteries. That means some sort of a commonly adopted interface on the tools and chargers implemented by all tool brands.

    Milwaukee can keep making their own charger and batteries, so can Bosch, and Makita…and advance the battery technology at the same time. But of course, once such standard exists, then inevitably, you will have BRAND X from Harbor Freight, adopting the same standards, offering a 6ah battery for $14.95 at 25% off every day, and throw in a free tarp with it. That’s what they don’t want to happen.

    These brands already are moving “forward” and still keeping backward compatibility. You can charge (in most cases) old NiCAD batteries on the new chargers, you can use Li-ion batteries, FUEL batteries on the older tools, they all use the same interface.

    Imagine not having USB and microUSB standards on phones and computers? All it needs is for the manufacturers implementing the standards for USB exchange. Every computer has a few USB ports and use USB cables to connect to another device. That doesn’t mean USB technology cannot advance, you have USB-1, USB-2, and USB-3, with increasing speed and through-put with each iteration, the older devices with older ports can still connect, just not as fast and efficient. Imagine LG phones, Nokia phones, Samsung phones, Pixel phones etc…all use different protocol, chargers and cables to do their charging?

    and I do agree with another post about the battery technology being advanced at a quicker pace outside of the power tool world like electric vehicles from companies like Tesla, and some sort of cross pollination to other categories could potential disrupt the cordless tool world’s proprietary battery strategy. Makita’s coffee maker may just be the beginning of a trend. May be the girls want cordless blenders, juicers, rice cookers, toasters, camping lanterns, fishing line retractors…

    They can call the new standard FUEL-ALL, Joe Galli would like that, wouldn’t he LOL?

    #709438
    CB
    Pro

    I remember that some phones had “mini” USB, and other phones had “micro” USB, and iPhones had the wide connector, and newer iPhones had the narrow connector…

    The EU is hoping to pass regulations that would require all phone companies to use the same charging connector.

    Not sure how that is working out for them, but it sounds like that is the kind of regulation you are looking for with battery operated tools.

    BE the change you want to see.
    Even if you can't Be The Pro... Be the Poster you'd want to read.

    #709440
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    I remember that some phones had “mini” USB, and other phones had “micro” USB, and iPhones had the wide connector, and newer iPhones had the narrow connector…

    The EU is hoping to pass regulations that would require all phone companies to use the same charging connector.

    Not sure how that is working out for them, but it sounds like that is the kind of regulation you are looking for with battery operated tools.

    Most of the phone manufacturers went through multiple iterations towards some sort of standardization. Yes there is USB on the computers and laptops, microUSB on the phones, and various protocols that handle the communication and charging. The SIM card went through the original SIM, then MicroSIM, then NanoSIM, yet you can buy adapters to adapt a NanoSIM to a large SIM slot. The microUSB connection went to USB-C where the male end can plug in either way, but adapters are available to go from last generation USB to USB-C.

    Generally I am against regulations mandated by governments. I hope the industry themselves would come together and develop some standards to allow them to interoperate because I believe it’s in their and the consumers’ long term interest for that to happen.

    I understand that right now it’s profitable for each tool brand to have their own battery platform. Once you buy into one a customer is more likely to stay in that platform. It makes their brand “sticky”. The only reason you will switch or buy into another platform is either the platform you are on produces shitty products or their selection is not wide enough. But I have to think they also lose business in a sense that having a best of class tool is no longer enough to win a customer. If Bosch has the best jigsaw in the world but will someone buy a Bosch if he’s already on another platform with a jigsaw barely good enough? May be may be not.

    I don’t think it will happen naturally, I think some sort of disruption event has to happen first.

    #709457
    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    I don’t think it will happen naturally, I think some sort of disruption event has to happen first.

    You’re right there, some event will have to happen whereby all manufacturers will be held to a common standard.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC
    (and also the World's Fastest Poster)

    #709463
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Another possibility, the battery technology advance far enough in size and form factor to the point that it is so small that consumers do not think of the battery as another interchangeable part, but an integral part of the tool itself, that super rapid charging will recharge 90% in 5 minutes, and typical usage can last through the day.

    I remember the early days of cell phones I carry around a spare battery and swap them out when low. Later on more and more phones have non removable batteries and typical usage last at least a full day. Electric razors, sonic tooth brushes, sex toys, those batteries are integrated and we don’t worry about battery interchange when making purchase altogether those are not continuous demanding use cases.

    #710864
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Curious, now that the Bosch wireless induction charging has been around for a few years, I haven’t seen a lot of them being sold in stores whether in big box stores or my local hardware stores, I haven’t seen much discussions here either (or may be I just missed old threads that have discussed this thoroughly). I also haven’t seen Bosch promote it much, such as bundling it with newer tools or combo kits.

    Does it charge a battery as fast as a regular charger?

    This type of charging can be the beginning of some sort of universal charger, I hope. Is there a wireless charger that works with both 12V and 18V?

    #710875

    Curious, now that the Bosch wireless induction charging has been around for a few years, I haven’t seen a lot of them being sold in stores whether in big box stores or my local hardware stores, I haven’t seen much discussions here either (or may be I just missed old threads that have discussed this thoroughly). I also haven’t seen Bosch promote it much, such as bundling it with newer tools or combo kits.

    Does it charge a battery as fast as a regular charger?

    This type of charging can be the beginning of some sort of universal charger, I hope. Is there a wireless charger that works with both 12V and 18V?

    I was surprised it didn’t do as well either ,
    I thought it would be a great idea especially in the manufacturing side
    As far as I know Bosch never made it for the 12 volts
    And I don’t think any other manufacturers made them either

    That would have been a great idea to use any other manufacturers wireless charger also 🤔 maybe that’s why it got canned ?

    #710881
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Did it get canned? It’s still available on Amazon.

    Seems they they did make a 10.8V battery for it. Is that before or after the 12V or is that the “effective” 12V?

    #710884

    Did it get canned? It’s still available on Amazon.

    Seems they they did make a 10.8V battery for it. Is that before or after the 12V or is that the “effective” 12V?

    Ah see I just learned something new , who said you can’t teach an old dog new tricks lol

    I thought it stopped being produced.
    I never knew that they did it for the 10 / 12 volts.
    You know you can get just about anything off the Amazon or website
    You can still buy ni-cad battery packs

    #735911
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    I just saw these youtube videos of comparing the knockoff vs the genuine batteries for Milwaukee, Makita and DeWalt.

    WARNING – VIDEOS CONTAIN ADULT LANGUAGE

    #735972

    I just saw these youtube videos of comparing the knockoff vs the genuine batteries for Milwaukee, Makita and DeWalt.

    <figure class=”oe-video-container”><iframe title=”BOLTR: DeWALT knockoff battery vs. the real deal” width=”770″ height=”433″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/w-d6NqkDUKI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&#8221; frameborder=”0″ allow=”accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture” allowfullscreen=””></iframe></figure>
    <figure class=”oe-video-container”><iframe title=”BOLTR: Cheap Tool Battery” width=”770″ height=”433″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/Eu_Ldn7uAMM?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&#8221; frameborder=”0″ allow=”accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture” allowfullscreen=””></iframe></figure>
    <figure class=”oe-video-container”><iframe title=”BOLTR: Knockoff Milwaukee Lithium. Surprizing Clickbait-able Results!” width=”770″ height=”433″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/E_UJeBoZ14Y?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&#8221; frameborder=”0″ allow=”accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture” allowfullscreen=””></iframe></figure>

    God I can’t stand listening to him ,
    I can’t believe I watched those vids , you can definitely see the difference , I noticed that the Makita and the Milwaukee look alike batteries had some of the wiring pinched ? I don’t think I would chance it ,
    How come he didn’t do that similar test with the Makita bats

    #735985
    Doobie
    Moderator

    I just saw these youtube videos of comparing the knockoff vs the genuine batteries for Milwaukee, Makita and DeWalt.

    I watched most of the Milwaukee video only. It was interesting to see that the CE battery is just useless in cold weather. But even worse is he identified that the internal cells used were reclaimed from something else and there was some kind of massive recall and lawsuit over them. Things like that concern me and is one of the reasons I will never buy 3rd party knock-offs unless from a reputable source typically re-manufactured here in NA for some old tool that you can no longer buy new one’s any longer.

    On another note, I edited the post to advise of the adult content language in them Sami. Just like he had in his video where he kept down his own language when his kid came and visited him while he was filming, viewers on the forum can have the same thing happen to them watching the video. Technically, the video shouldn’t be allowed at all per the forum rules, but as long as there is a warning prefacing such content in a video, let’s roll with that unless we get any actual complaints.

    #740467
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Interesting video with someone showing all different types of battery adapters between manufacturers. A bit “clunky” for me but interesting nonetheless.

    #740471

    @Miamicuse I watched that the other day , interesting to see , like you it’s to bulky for me to use on power tools , I was actually thinking about something like using four adapters for bosch batteries to be able to use the DeWalt power supply for certain things , would be cheaper to buy 4 adapters and the bare power supply then I could’ve used it in power outages 🤷🤔

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