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Battery and Charger Interoperability Discussions

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  • #708520
    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    Different tool companies have different patents for battery teck. Graco paint sprayers have teamed with Black&Decked and use DeWalt batteries.
    I’m not sure I get where you are coming from.. Different tool companies have the same chinese factory as other tool companies.

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #708525
    CB
    Blocked

    Thanks for identifying where Graco is using the DeWalt battery.

    I think your post is exactly what this thread is about, as summarized in the title to this thread, and in the original post. Discussing battery and charger interoperability. That’s where I’m coming from.

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    #708905
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Now for further irony: Greenlee is owned by Emerson, and Emerson owns Ridgid, and Ridgid makes their own battery operated line of cable crimpers, that uses an entirely different battery system, one that is yet different from the TTI liscensed Ridgid brand!

    I hear you, the issue of battery/charger compatibility is all over the place.

    I think SBD is trying to consolidate their product lines, keeping the brand names while reducing manufacturing cost.

    On the other hand, I think TTI is still operating as several different, independent companies for the most part. There might be some cross pollination going on somewhere, but as a consumer I do not see much evidence of that.

    Companies who grow by acquisition vs companies who grow organically like Makita.

    I do think the Greenlee/Ridgid union will take some time. Emerson didn’t acquire Greenlee until about six months ago, so it will be a while before their product engineering and marketing sort things out.

    On the other hand, I have always wondered when Ridgid will come out with a cordless vac, and if they ever do, will it be coming from “TTI Ridgid” who makes all the cordless tools, or will it be from “Emerson Ridgid” who makes all the shop vacs? I noticed this 3G 18V cordless vac is made by Emerson Ridgid but it uses TTI Ridgid’s 18V battery so at least there is some handshaking between the two. Only problem is this vac is covered by Emerson’s “Limited Warranty” and the battery/charger are purchased separately and would be covered by TTI’s LSA if bought as a kit with something else, LOL.

    #708988
    CB
    Blocked

    Even more irony in brand and battery interoperability…

    Emerson, which owns Ridgid (with battery crimp tools that use a yet to be determined battery system that doesn not interchange with TTI Ridgid), and which recently acquired Greenlee (with battery crimp tools that use Makita LXT 18v batteries), also owns Klauke….

    wait for it….

    (with battery crimp tools that use BOSCH 18v batteries)!!!

    But wait… there’s more….

    Wait for it…

    Klauke tools can also be had in the Makita battery flavor!

    So now the Emerson owned collective of professional battery operated tool brands used three different NON interchangeable battery systems… none of which are interoperable with each other, but yet are interoperable with other brands that produce a few tools that COMPETE with the brands owned by Emerson.

    There is no hope for a single standardized battery system.

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    #709016
    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    On the other hand, I have always wondered when Ridgid will come out with a cordless vac,

    Are you talking about this one?

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #709054
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    There is no hope for a single standardized battery system.

    The more confusion and chaos there is, the more likely something will eventually happen. All it takes is one tool vendor to break the trend, or a third party to make some compatibility adapter, or even a cheap knockoff that works reasonably well and safe. It’s all Sony or Panasonic or Sanyo 18650 inside, no?

    #709055

    There is no hope for a single standardized battery system.

    The more confusion and chaos there is, the more likely something will eventually happen. All it takes is one tool vendor to break the trend, or a third party to make some compatibility adapter, or even a cheap knockoff that works reasonably well and safe. It’s all Sony or Panasonic or Sanyo 18650 inside, no?

    I hope so , but then again I thought I read somewhere that the new Craftsman cordless tools are not compatible I mean the 20 volts for light use or home owner grade is not apparently compatible with the higher end of the 20 volts tools. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

    #709057
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    On the other hand, I have always wondered when Ridgid will come out with a cordless vac,

    Are you talking about this one?

    Yes I meant to include a link or pic but obviously forgot. This vac is made by Emerson but uses TTI Ridgid batteries.

    #709060
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    There is no hope for a single standardized battery system.

    The more confusion and chaos there is, the more likely something will eventually happen. All it takes is one tool vendor to break the trend, or a third party to make some compatibility adapter, or even a cheap knockoff that works reasonably well and safe. It’s all Sony or Panasonic or Sanyo 18650 inside, no?

    I hope so , but then again I thought I read somewhere that the new Craftsman cordless tools are not compatible I mean the 20 volts for light use or home owner grade is not apparently compatible with the higher end of the 20 volts tools. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

    That Craftsman thing is a totally different animal altogether. Sears sold the brand to SBD. So SBD is making Craftsman power tools with it’s battery platform. Yet Sears has 15 years to keep selling it’s own using existing suppliers, and that’s what is causing the issue. But doesn’t seem likely Sears will survive. It’s already bankcrupted and will be closing another 80 stores, and yesterday was the last day to find a buyer and the only bid they had was from their own CEO with 4.4B. I don’t think Sears will hang around much longer so the incompatibility issue will go away with those who bought Sears power tools holding the bag.

    #709061
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    Thinking more about @CB post, about various Emerson Ridgid plumbing tools using different batteries, may be an indication that Emerson doesn’t really have a unified battery platform strategy for tools that’s coming out of the Ohio Ridge Tool Company. If Emerson made it’s shop vac TTI Ridgid compatible, then it may give TTI a foot in the door to be the battery of choice at Ridge. I am just guessing here, but possibly those specialty plumbing tools out of Ridge could have been created out of necessity to fill large custom orders where a customer like Roto-rooter say I’ll buy 10000 of these at these price if you make it compatible with our xisting company battery platform? They did a couple of these deals and suddenly they have half a dozen tools on 3 platforms.

    They should just diversify here and see what happens. Why can’t Emerson Ridgid offer:

    SKU #787818a 18V Battery Crimp Tool Compatible with Makita
    SKU #787818b 18V Battery Crimp Tool Compatible with Bosch
    SKU #787818c 18V Battery Crimp Tool Compatible with Ridgid

    Why not?

    #709091
    CB
    Blocked

    There is no hope for a single standardized battery system.

    The more confusion and chaos there is, the more likely something will eventually happen. All it takes is one tool vendor to break the trend, or a third party to make some compatibility adapter, or even a cheap knockoff that works reasonably well and safe. It’s all Sony or Panasonic or Sanyo 18650 inside, no?

    No.

    The newer, higher amp hour batteries recently released are using 20700 cells, and even 21700 cells. LG is another cell supplier to add to the list of the three already mentioned. And the key differentiation between tool brand battery packs isn’t just in the three different cell diameters (18mm, 20mm, and 21mm) and two different lengths (65mm and 70mm)… it is far more so in the manner which these cells are packed, plated, and probed by onboard monitoring to eek out the best balance between power and cycle life that differentiates the creative landscape and patent protections that distinguish one tool brand’s engineering prowess from another.

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    #709175
    Miamicuse
    Pro
    Fort Lauderdale, Florida

    The newer, higher amp hour batteries recently released are using 20700 cells, and even 21700 cells. LG is another cell supplier to add to the list of the three already mentioned. And the key differentiation between tool brand battery packs isn’t just in the three different cell diameters (18mm, 20mm, and 21mm) and two different lengths (65mm and 70mm)… it is far more so in the manner which these cells are packed, plated, and probed by onboard monitoring to eek out the best balance between power and cycle life that differentiates the creative landscape and patent protections that distinguish one tool brand’s engineering prowess from another.

    That’s good information. I still hope something will trigger a universal battery revolution so cordless tool buying decision can be made based on individual tool’s functionality, usability, durability and not piggy backed on the handcuff which is the battery platform.

    #709184
    CB
    Blocked

    Yet the piggy backed battery platform is more than half the engineering battle in winning the usability war.

    In the late ’80’s and early ’90’s, my basic drill kit always consisted of four drill motors, 2 corded, and 2 cordless. (This is not counting the specialty drill motors like right angle, Sioux close quarters, hammer drill, that were not always needed all the time).

    But I always had a Milwaukee 1/2″ low rpm high torque hole shooter, and a RED colored Makita 3/8″ high rpm low torque drill, both corded, simply because the battery operated tools of that period of time didn’t have the power or the run time to reliably complete all the tasks that needed doing. Yet the cordless was convenient on the ladder, so it was used where possible and not challenged by the material.

    In other words, the make or break efficacy in the cordless tools was not a function of the drill motors… it was a function of the battery power and longevity.

    So a buying decision based merely on an “individual tool’s functionality, usability, durability and not piggy backed on the handcuff which is the battery platform” ignores one of the most important elements that makes a battery tool functional, useable, and durable… that being it’s piggy backed battery system. The golden handcuffs.

    What if batteries were standardized 30 years ago? All brands of tools would be running 9.6v NiCds in an awkward long skinny shape, which was the most prevalent and dominant tool battery system at that time. But if it were not for a competitor changing the battery shape, we would not be able to stand a drill or a driver up on its handle… something that was impossible to do with the dominant battery that existed prior to the shape changing innovation.

    What if batteries were standardized 20 years ago, by this time all now in the rectangular shape that permits tools to stand up on their own handles. The dominant voltage of 20 years ago was 14.4v. and the dominant chemistry was NiMh. If this standard was universalized across all brands, what incentive would there have been for Makita to shake up the market by introducing Lithium Ion to battery tools?

    LiIon chemistry, in its various iterations, has proven to be so vastly superior in all the aspects that make cordless power tools functional and useable, it would have been a shame for a universal standard to have existed that would have hampered the faltering first steps of one company to break from the “pack” so to speak.

    The standardized battery pack would have prevented the lessons learned from too much heat, too much weight, too much bulk, and too long of charging times for the Milwaukee’s 28 volt and Makita’s 36 volt battery packs, systems that are both mothballed from further development in favor of the 18V iterations that are today’s dominant battery packs.

    So what about 10 years from now? What power densities will be achieved? What thermal operational envelopes will be opened? What possibilities, that are now being tested in labs, will eventually find themselves affixed to the ends of our tool handles.

    The stored energy density, charge rate, discharge rate, cycle life, thermal envelope, ability of the charge circuitry to balance individual cells within the pack… even the way in which the circuit board in the pack is powered (from all batteries or just one or two, where if the one or two batteries die, the entire pack is rendered useless)… these are all vastly variable factors in battery pack design. These are the areas where brand A differs from brand B.

    Without a doubt, an impact driver without a battery is a useless chunk of intricate plastic and metal. It has no value without power. The efficacy of the tool depends on the efficacy of the battery system it depends on, and there is a steady stream of continuous evolution in battery and charging systems that would make any standardization across all tool brands not only improbable, but also not in the best interest of advancing technology.

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    #709249
    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    I still hope something will trigger a universal battery revolution so cordless tool buying decision can be made based on individual tool’s functionality, usability, durability and not piggy backed on the handcuff which is the battery platform.

    That would be nice. I am still hoping for that as well.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC
    (and also the World's Fastest Poster)

    #709250

    There is no hope for a single standardized battery system.

    The more confusion and chaos there is, the more likely something will eventually happen. All it takes is one tool vendor to break the trend, or a third party to make some compatibility adapter, or even a cheap knockoff that works reasonably well and safe. It’s all Sony or Panasonic or Sanyo 18650 inside, no?

    No.

    The newer, higher amp hour batteries recently released are using 20700 cells, and even 21700 cells. LG is another cell supplier to add to the list of the three already mentioned. And the key differentiation between tool brand battery packs isn’t just in the three different cell diameters (18mm, 20mm, and 21mm) and two different lengths (65mm and 70mm)… it is far more so in the manner which these cells are packed, plated, and probed by onboard monitoring to eek out the best balance between power and cycle life that differentiates the creative landscape and patent protections that distinguish one tool brand’s engineering prowess from another.

    I also think that it will be the electric vehicle industry that will drive it from here, with hand held power tools riding the wave of innovation brought on by truly crazing amounts of money being invested.

    Will

    #709258
    Doobie
    Moderator

    I still hope something will trigger a universal battery revolution so cordless tool buying decision can be made based on individual tool’s functionality, usability, durability and not piggy backed on the handcuff which is the battery platform.

    That would be nice. I am still hoping for that as well.

    I doubt that will ever happen myself unless mandated by some big world governments like the US and other G7 countries together.

    #709310
    CB
    Blocked

    A common 18v battery platform isn’t even mandated within the same tool manufacturer:

    .

    BE the change you want to see.
    Even if you can't Be The Pro... Be the Poster you'd want to read.

    #709325
    Doobie
    Moderator

    A common 18v battery platform isn’t even mandated within the same tool manufacturer:

    .

    That’s the Bosch euro homeowners line. They don’t sell them here in NA.

    #709330
    CB
    Blocked

    That’s the Bosch euro homeowners line. They don’t sell them here in NA.

    I doubt that will ever happen myself unless mandated by some big world governments like the US and other G7 countries together.

    That Bosch’s Euro line isn’t sold in NA is a known given, but when considered in the context that you yourself established, that being “big world governments” and “other G7 countries” in particular, where the majority of G7 countries are in the epicenter of Europe, including Germany, France, Italy, and the United Kingdom, and where the European Union itself is now a member, considered as the 8th member… then Bosch’s Euro line becomes quite relevant in the G7 “mandate” that you postulated.

    Thus the point remains, if one tool company can’t even establish a common battery platform with a portable DC power supply that operates a tool independently of the AC voltage supplied by the utility mains of any given G7 country on either side of the pond… if that can’t be done within one company, the probability of it being done across all tool companies appears even less likely.

    BE the change you want to see.
    Even if you can't Be The Pro... Be the Poster you'd want to read.

    #709350
    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    A common 18v battery platform isn’t even mandated within the same tool manufacturer:

    The new Craftsman line has the same problem. There are no less than 3 20V Craftsman tool lines and they all take a different battery. Talk about problems.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC
    (and also the World's Fastest Poster)

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