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BATTERIES THE STRAIGHT DOPE!!

This topic contains 148 replies, has 32 voices, and was last updated by  Boschmanbrian 10 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 149 total)
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  • #684869

    The segue from tool batteries to car batteries reminded me of the impact that battery chemistry can have on battery buying decisions.

    I put high end “aftermarket” batteries in my truck, which is a diesel, and requires at least two batteries in good condition just to power the glow plugs and turn the high compression, large displacement motor.

    Previously, I had replaced the batteries in this truck with the highest level of OEM branded batteries offered by the OEM dealer. They only lasted 3 and a half years. Prior to that, the original batteries only lasted 3 years.

    So I decided to give these aftermarket batteries a shot. That was 10 years ago, and the truck is still starting everyday on those same batteries that I installed back in 2008. Not just the same type and brand of batteries… but the exact same physical batteries, still robustly working without issue.

    Sometimes, aftermarket batteries can be better than OEM. In the case of my truck batteries, the lead acid chemistry was the same as an OEM flooded wet cell battery, but the electrolyte in this particular aftermarket battery was absorbed into a fiberglass mat. And the lead in the battery had 99.99% purity. The manufacturer of the battery is the same company that outfits fighter jets, submarines, and army tanks with batteries, all applications which really benefit from a reliable battery, even when upside down.

    Finding such a parallel with tool batteries would be interesting. I was a late adopter to Lithium Ion tool batteries, so I have yet to experience a battery failure that would send me seeking alternatives. But man did I ever go through a slew of NiMh and NiCd tool batteries in the ’80’s, 90’s, and ’00’s.

    I was tempted to try aftermarket tool batteries at that time, but then found that it was cheaper to buy a duplicate tool kit on sale that shipped with two batteries, so that I could also get an extra charger for the simultaneous charging of multiple batteries, in addition to the two new batteries that shipped with the kit. Nevermind the tool that was included.

    But I wouldn’t necessarily condemn all aftermarket batteries. In the example of vehicle batteries, aftermarket has worked out quite well for me for the last decade, saving me three typical battery changing cycles so far.

    Aftermarket makes sense when they are built against an open standard, as marine and car batteries are. Tool batteries are still nonstandard so there are no “aftermarket” in a true sense. There are genetics and imitations instead, and they all try to differentiate themselves by being cheaper, rather than better than the real thing

    #684871

    CB
    Pro

    Your response reminded me that I didn’t finish connecting the dots in the premise of my previous post… that being that battery chemistry could be a deciding factor in the decision to go aftermarket.

    For example, a genuine Makita B9000 9.6v long battery is 1.4ah, whereas most if not all aftermarket equivalents are 3.0ah. Disregarding the fact that the aftermarket alternatives are less than half the price of the genuine Makita… they actually have twice the amp hour rating, for more sustained power in use between charges. That’s a useful convenience. A lot like my not having to heft heavy batteries in and out of my truck every three years… the different battery offers functional convenience beyond what the OEM offered, regardless of price.

    Not only that, but many of the aftermarket alternatives to the Makita B9000 battery have higher star ratings, with twice the number of reviews. Numbers don’t lie. (Well, unless those numbers are generated by a bot farm in the Shenzhen Province burying Amazon with favorable reviews using Russian intelligence developed linguistic engines to fool gullible westerners like me… which is entirely possible.)

    Be that as it may, while the aftermarket’s near doubling of stored energy density within the same form factor as Makita’s proprietary NiCd battery packs that were originally designed 30 years ago was no doubt made possible by technological improvements discovered in the three decades since… the lithium ion battery chemistry at the affordable level in power tools is much more recent, leaving less room on the table to improve in quality.

    Hence, the statement that battery chemistry might be a deciding factor in whether or not to go with OEM or aftermarket tool batteries.

    #684936

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    Great post CB,, Also what we have to remember id these batteries selling at half the price with the same cells in them and they are making money off selling them. Lets us really know how bad we are being gouged for batteries when we buy the tool name brands.

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #684945

    Doobie
    Pro

    I’m sorry but some non-OEM lithium battery made in Shoddytown China is never gonna enter my house or vehicle if I can help it. The fire risk is just too high. Ever see even a small lithium phone size battery catch fire…..it’s pretty ferocious.

    Imagine the one in your tool that is dozens of times larger. And you can’t just douse water on them to put them out, it’s a chemical reaction that will just keep burning once started til it’s fuel source is exhausted. Think of a propane tank leak that is set on fire….but worse! The big diff is you have to ignite the propane whereas a lithium produces it’s firery furry as a result of it’s failure. “Look Ma….no matches!”

    Also when they’ve been compromised, they can sit for hours before they burst into flames. Something as simple as dropping them with what is certainly a lesser quality casing and internal harnessing design and electronics make such knock-offs more prone to latent/dormant catastrophic failures as well.

    Again, not for me. Save your money elsewhere. To me this is not like car batteries or older NiCad or Metal Hydride batteries at all and more like buying cheap discount grenades or parachutes. Take your pick.

    #684954

    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    Lets us really know how bad we are being gouged for batteries when we buy the tool name brands.

    Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy the tool kit to get the batteries it almost like getting the tool for free.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    #684993

    Boschmanbrian
    Pro
    Montreal , QC, Canada

    Lets us really know how bad we are being gouged for batteries when we buy the tool name brands.

    Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy the tool kit to get the batteries it almost like getting the tool for free.

    Definitely a good point Bill, that’s what I do most of the time, that’s how I ended up with numerous previous ni-cad batteries prior to switching over to the lithium

    #685005

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    Lets us really know how bad we are being gouged for batteries when we buy the tool name brands.

    Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy the tool kit to get the batteries it almost like getting the tool for free.

    I do it this way too.

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #685042

    CB
    Pro

    I was tempted to try aftermarket tool batteries at that time, but then found that it was cheaper to buy a duplicate tool kit on sale that shipped with two batteries, so that I could also get an extra charger for the simultaneous charging of multiple batteries, in addition to the two new batteries that shipped with the kit. Nevermind the tool that was included.

    I do it this way too.

    Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy the tool kit to get the batteries it almost like getting the tool for free.

    Definitely a good point Bill, that’s what I do most of the time, that’s how I ended up with numerous previous ni-cad batteries prior to switching over to the lithium

    That makes four of us all doing the same thing. I guess the tool manufactures caught on to our scheme. No wonder they sell all the cool new specialty tools as “Tool Only” nowadays.

    #685055

    Boschmanbrian
    Pro
    Montreal , QC, Canada

    I was tempted to try aftermarket tool batteries at that time, but then found that it was cheaper to buy a duplicate tool kit on sale that shipped with two batteries, so that I could also get an extra charger for the simultaneous charging of multiple batteries, in addition to the two new batteries that shipped with the kit. Nevermind the tool that was included.

    I do it this way too.

    Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy the tool kit to get the batteries it almost like getting the tool for free.

    Definitely a good point Bill, that’s what I do most of the time, that’s how I ended up with numerous previous ni-cad batteries prior to switching over to the lithium

    That makes four of us all doing the same thing. I guess the tool manufactures caught on to our scheme. No wonder they sell all the cool new specialty tools as “Tool Only” nowadays.

    Haha, yeah, you are probably right,
    You make some great points and posts, keep the great feedback coming, I really enjoy reading your posts, wish I had the ability and writing to reading capabilities to post like you. Great stuff.

    #685170

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    I’m sorry but some non-OEM lithium battery made in Shoddytown China is never gonna enter my house or vehicle if I can help it. The fire risk is just too high. Ever see even a small lithium phone size battery catch fire…..it’s pretty ferocious.

    Imagine the one in your tool that is dozens of times larger. And you can’t just douse water on them to put them out, it’s a chemical reaction that will just keep burning once started til it’s fuel source is exhausted. Think of a propane tank leak that is set on fire….but worse! The big diff is you have to ignite the propane whereas a lithium produces it’s firery furry as a result of it’s failure. “Look Ma….no matches!”

    Also when they’ve been compromised, they can sit for hours before they burst into flames. Something as simple as dropping them with what is certainly a lesser quality casing and internal harnessing design and electronics make such knock-offs more prone to latent/dormant catastrophic failures as well.

    Again, not for me. Save your money elsewhere. To me this is not like car batteries or older NiCad or Metal Hydride batteries at all and more like buying cheap discount grenades or parachutes. Take your pick.

    It’s funny I have never heard of this happening on the news?? Just those hover boards and the phones. After market batteries for tools have been around for over 25 years now.

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #685181

    I’m sorry but some non-OEM lithium battery made in Shoddytown China is never gonna enter my house or vehicle if I can help it. The fire risk is just too high. Ever see even a small lithium phone size battery catch fire…..it’s pretty ferocious.

    Imagine the one in your tool that is dozens of times larger. And you can’t just douse water on them to put them out, it’s a chemical reaction that will just keep burning once started til it’s fuel source is exhausted. Think of a propane tank leak that is set on fire….but worse! The big diff is you have to ignite the propane whereas a lithium produces it’s firery furry as a result of it’s failure. “Look Ma….no matches!”

    Also when they’ve been compromised, they can sit for hours before they burst into flames. Something as simple as dropping them with what is certainly a lesser quality casing and internal harnessing design and electronics make such knock-offs more prone to latent/dormant catastrophic failures as well.

    Again, not for me. Save your money elsewhere. To me this is not like car batteries or older NiCad or Metal Hydride batteries at all and more like buying cheap discount grenades or parachutes. Take your pick.

    It’s funny I have never heard of this happening on the news?? Just those hover boards and the phones. After market batteries for tools have been around for over 25 years now.

    It’s really only lithium ion and can only happen if the battery cells are REALLY defective. You’d pretty much need to really screw up your design (Samsung phones – I think it was the Galaxy 7 model) or just not care (knockoff hover boards)

    #685184

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    It’s really only lithium ion and can only happen if the battery cells are REALLY defective. You’d pretty much need to really screw up your design (Samsung phones – I think it was the Galaxy 7 model) or just not care (knockoff hover boards)

    Now after that we can no longer send batteries in the US mail…. but people do it anywho

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #685208

    Doobie
    Pro

    I’m sorry but some non-OEM lithium battery made in Shoddytown China is never gonna enter my house or vehicle if I can help it. The fire risk is just too high. Ever see even a small lithium phone size battery catch fire…..it’s pretty ferocious.

    Imagine the one in your tool that is dozens of times larger. And you can’t just douse water on them to put them out, it’s a chemical reaction that will just keep burning once started til it’s fuel source is exhausted. Think of a propane tank leak that is set on fire….but worse! The big diff is you have to ignite the propane whereas a lithium produces it’s firery furry as a result of it’s failure. “Look Ma….no matches!”

    Also when they’ve been compromised, they can sit for hours before they burst into flames. Something as simple as dropping them with what is certainly a lesser quality casing and internal harnessing design and electronics make such knock-offs more prone to latent/dormant catastrophic failures as well.

    Again, not for me. Save your money elsewhere. To me this is not like car batteries or older NiCad or Metal Hydride batteries at all and more like buying cheap discount grenades or parachutes. Take your pick.

    It’s funny I have never heard of this happening on the news?? Just those hover boards and the phones. After market batteries for tools have been around for over 25 years now.

    Good point. Can’t say I’ve heard of any either. But lithium knock offs are not that old either. NiCad and MH batteries weren’t nearly as dangerous battery types like lithium either.

    I would be inclined to be more open to buying a knock off if it was designed and came from a G7 country. I’d even throw in places like South Korea or Australia in that group. But not China. Not for something like lithium batteries. It’s not something I’ll risk having that if it fails for whatever reason can be so potentially catastrophic just to save a few bucks. I just don’t trust them for something like that. I’ll likely never change my view of them in my lifetime.

    #685223

    GTokley
    Pro
    Madoc, ON

    I’m sorry but some non-OEM lithium battery made in Shoddytown China is never gonna enter my house or vehicle if I can help it. The fire risk is just too high. Ever see even a small lithium phone size battery catch fire…..it’s pretty ferocious.

    Imagine the one in your tool that is dozens of times larger. And you can’t just douse water on them to put them out, it’s a chemical reaction that will just keep burning once started til it’s fuel source is exhausted. Think of a propane tank leak that is set on fire….but worse! The big diff is you have to ignite the propane whereas a lithium produces it’s firery furry as a result of it’s failure. “Look Ma….no matches!”

    Also when they’ve been compromised, they can sit for hours before they burst into flames. Something as simple as dropping them with what is certainly a lesser quality casing and internal harnessing design and electronics make such knock-offs more prone to latent/dormant catastrophic failures as well.

    Again, not for me. Save your money elsewhere. To me this is not like car batteries or older NiCad or Metal Hydride batteries at all and more like buying cheap discount grenades or parachutes. Take your pick.

    I feel the same way of buying knock offs. I did buy knock off battery for my Camcorder a few years ago. I just got a new battery for my cell phone and it doesn’t look like knock off. It is supose to be from Samsung and looks like the original battery.

    Greg

    instagram.com/gregtokley/

    #685238

    theamcguy
    Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    Now after that we can no longer send batteries in the US mail

    Makes it a pain to buy tools from overseas that have batteries. Can’t do it have to buy bare tools only.

    Automotive Pro
    Fayetteville, NC

    #685255

    Boschmanbrian
    Pro
    Montreal , QC, Canada

    Now after that we can no longer send batteries in the US mail

    Makes it a pain to buy tools from overseas that have batteries. Can’t do it have to buy bare tools only.

    That’s true, it’s definitely changed the way we use to buy tools with batteries over the Internet.

    #685259

    Now after that we can no longer send batteries in the US mail

    Makes it a pain to buy tools from overseas that have batteries. Can’t do it have to buy bare tools only.

    That’s true, it’s definitely changed the way we use to buy tools with batteries over the Internet.

    Not just US mail, also no air mail anywhere in the western world. Serves as a reminder that lithium batteries are little grenades held in check by the design – scary reminder why they aren’t a place to cheap out

    #685271

    Doobie
    Pro

    Now after that we can no longer send batteries in the US mail

    Makes it a pain to buy tools from overseas that have batteries. Can’t do it have to buy bare tools only.

    That’s true, it’s definitely changed the way we use to buy tools with batteries over the Internet.

    Not just US mail, also no air mail anywhere in the western world. Serves as a reminder that lithium batteries are little grenades held in check by the design – scary reminder why they aren’t a place to cheap out

    I’ve travelled by air with tool batteries. You can only bring them in your carry-on and you have to show that the ends are taped off going thru the security check.

    #685285

    DirtyWhiteBoy
    Pro
    Honolulu,, Hi.

    I would be inclined to be more open to buying a knock off if it was designed and came from a G7 country. I’d even throw in places like South Korea or Australia in that group. But not China. Not for something like lithium batteries. It’s not something I’ll risk having that if it fails for whatever reason can be so potentially catastrophic just to save a few bucks. I just don’t trust them for something like that. I’ll likely never change my view of them in my lifetime.

    First of all it doesn’t matter where the batteries or cells are made, who really cares about that?

    So are you saying that because it’s china it’s more likely to be crap??

    Dirty

    A Working Pro since 1988!

    Member since January 26, 2013.

    #685298

    Boschmanbrian
    Pro
    Montreal , QC, Canada

    Now after that we can no longer send batteries in the US mail

    Makes it a pain to buy tools from overseas that have batteries. Can’t do it have to buy bare tools only.

    That’s true, it’s definitely changed the way we use to buy tools with batteries over the Internet.

    Not just US mail, also no air mail anywhere in the western world. Serves as a reminder that lithium batteries are little grenades held in check by the design – scary reminder why they aren’t a place to cheap out

    I find that just strange, yet you can take your laptop and cell phone on board not a problem? What’s wrong with this scenario, oh and remember, laptop can catch fire easily also, just like those cell phones.

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