dcsimg

4100 Dust Control Modifications

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 76 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #594676

    @58chev

    The 4100 does poorly in capturing dust below the saw since it has huge gaping areas and the way the guard below is designed. That’s easily remedied to the point the 4100 won’t leave a pile of sawdust on the floor. Even with a shopvac most of the dust comes out from the front where there’s a gap between the housing and the table/throat plate.

    The overhead guard is a bit bulky but it isn’t annoying to work with. What I was aiming for was something thin enough to let me do rip cuts up to about 3/8ths from the fence or so. It gets annoying fast when you’re cleaning the edge of ACX and you have the dust stream coming off and impacting your finger as a stream of sharp splinters.

    Why did you choose to go this route over buying the NAINA dust collection overarm guard that is designed for the saw?

    @Montreal_Medic

    The NAINA guard does not have side “wings” or an overhead arm mounting option. This is just a quick and dirty proof of concept prototype for me to test the airflow in this design (The 150 degree bend) and long front extension so it’ll capture dust at the end of the cut. That and shipping in combination with the guard would easily be 30x+ the cost of materials and a hour of time for this prototype. This prototype unmounts with about three turns of the 8-32 thumbscrew I have (Left of the knob) by tipping upwards and pulling away. The star knob is there so I can hold it and lift the guard upwards, which tightens the 1/4″ bolt and locks the guard in the upwards position. Holding it and pushing it down unlocks it and allows for free movement. That’s almost as good as having spring detents that hold it up in the raised position. This design also works without a vacuum, if I just took the splitter and stuck my 4100 bag on it’d still capture dust.

    Going over some existing designs:
    -Conventional overhead dust collector/guard designs for cabinet/slider saws assume you have 1000cfm+ so they just stick a 2″ tube right at the back or middle of the sawblade. That’s a no go since the dust isn’t being generated at the back of the blade, it gets generated from where the teeth go into the material. Those designs work great if you have all that airflow to just create a nice vacuum inside them, but I obviously don’t have that kind of airflow so collection efficiency relative to airflow and static suction is very important.

    -Shopnotes has a larger radius on their design and the angle that it deflects at is less than nearly 180 degrees which means there’s less losses. The problem is it uses a parallelogram lifting mechanism which means it won’t drop back down after the material passes over the front. Also it doesn’t have wings like the sawstop design but it does extend back far enough to the blade so you get a nice tunnel of air being captured off the blade with very little chance of material escaping. You could just get rid of the parallelogram linkage and lengthen it…

    -Sawstop’s overhead guard has a “bend” and wings but its an insanely small radius so any gains from the airflow off the blade are nullified by the sharp bend. Also it doesn’t extend out from the front to capture any material at the end of the cut for anything taller than basically underlayment. I also don’t like Sawstop’s corporate actions, especially with their litigation tactics. Their guard is also very costly relative to the performance you can achieve with it and it would take significant modification to mount onto the riving knife of the 4100 let alone trying to rig it to mount overhead.

    -The NAINA guard resembles the Mafell guard (I haven’t seen the inside of it) but it looks like the suction is right at the back of it, not at the front where you get dust. Unless there’s some kind of internal baffling that pulls the suction right up to the front it isn’t going be that helpful. It doesn’t even drop onto the material for the design and it won’t seal up at the front so you’re dealing with dust escaping from the front since there’s physically nothing to obstruct it and at best you have a little suction trying to fight the airflow being generated by the blade. Also the knob is on the right which means you’ll have to rip with the fence on the left (A big no for me, I have the fence set with a tiny, tiny bit of toe out on the right) if you deal with thin rips. It is also a short guard which means it won’t capture material at the end of the cut.

    So in the end I want to try to get some of the features of the Shopnotes (Large radius bend, less than 180 degrees redirection of airflow) design and the Sawstop design (Wings) with some features of my own (Long front extension, freely tips downwards to almost or completely contact the table to seal at the end of the cut, overhead mounting option for interrupted cuts/dados/etc). The prototype I have would let me mount it onto a 0.75″ thick piece of material overhead if I needed it to right now by removing the knob so I’m happy with the direction I’m going with this. I’ll just end up modifying some other things and probably have a further reduced angle to try to maximize efficiency.

    #595511
    Kamster
    Pro

    @Reflector

    Found this while looking for ideas about the overhead dust collector. This design uses a rear splitter that replaces the riving knife with the shopnotes (issue 92) style collector mounted to it

    https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/workshop-talk/shop-related-discussions/dust-collection/23784-overarm-dust-collector

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/32709842@N08/sets/72157615160543910/with/3350313924/

    #595523

    @Kamster

    That’s an interesting design but the sharp bend is gonna cause a real penalty on airflow. Check out the curvature I have on the prototype I made. It also comes off the guard easier, one thumbscrew with a few turns and it comes off. You can get away with that because of the 4100’s riving knife and the design intent of the factory guard since you just need one fixed pin and one that can be moved. In my case the thumbscrew takes the place of the moving pin.

    What I’m going to do with the prototype I have now is to make an overhead arm attachment (I’ve been running the hose on the left at times since I won’t exactly be running sheet goods on the 4100 in crosscuts as if it was a sliding table saw…) and then attach it before actually making a proper version. So far it works great except for the edging cut where I don’t have the blade enclosed by material on both sides. That still can be mitigated by placing a 2×4 on the side and a piece of material the same thickness as whatever I’m cutting infront to prevent airflow from bypassing the suction zone.

    I’m pretty set on making it an overhead arm attachment because I want to get capture on non through cuts since I like to make scoring cuts on good sheet goods even if I have a Diablo 80T blade. It means I won’t get dust collection or I’ll have to pull the riving knife up and remount it after making a batch of cuts which would suck.

    #598468
    Kamster
    Pro

    @woodman_412 and @Reflector

    Just saw this over at Lumberjocks. Dan, you got a mention and a link to your Youtube video about the overhead dust collector.

    http://lumberjocks.com/projects/285434

    This design uses a drawer slide to move the dust collector with a cross cut

    #598535
    woodman_412
    Moderator

    woodman_412 and reflector

    Just saw this over at Lumberjocks. Dan, you got a mention and a link to your Youtube video about the overhead dust collector.

    http://lumberjocks.com/projects/285434

    This design uses a drawer slide to move the dust collector with a cross cut

    Thanks for the heads up John. That was a great overarm build that he did. The guy left a comment on my video and gave the link to that thread yesterday. I told him that if he’s interested in having it featured on the Viewer Projects page on the DP website that he can send me the pics and description. I like what he did with the drawer slide and the adjustable features that he built in.

    Dan

    danpattison.com

    #598541

    @Kamster

    Interesting sliding mechanism for clearing the sled. I just looked at it again to understand that its to allow the guard to clear the sled.

    When I get my materials I’ll be making my overhead arm the suction tube as well, I ordered some aluminum tubing and I’m just waiting for it to ship.

    #610241
    Kamster
    Pro

    @Reflector

    How have you been progressing with your design?

    I’m gearing up to start building an overhead collector but I haven’t decided on a design. I was looking at this design because of the fore/aft control and the ability to mount it to the fence. There are bunch of add-ons that can be mounted to the fence via the t-track on top.

    #610257
    madman_us
    Pro
    Palm Springs, CA

    that does look like a great solution to keep down the dust for the table saw.
    you might wanna check out Dan’s solution if you haven’t. pretty genius as well.

    "If you're going to do something, do it right the first time"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Instagram
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Palm Springs, CA

    #610281

    @kamster

    I haven’t had a chance to improve on the guard as it works for through cuts right now. I am planning to do four things at least once I get my 3D printer up and running. One of the things is I am building a table to put it on and I found that my scrap piece of melamine isn’t big enough so that’s something for tomorrow at least.

    What I’m doing for the first thing is to make the overhead collector using the 3D printer so it has a better channel than the prototype and better sealing since that prototype is iffy with the flexible material and the vacuum nozzle. What I’ll end up with is a guard that has a built in circular port and all the design features I need. I’ll just end up cutting a few pieces of acrylic to go over the sides of it.

    The next thing is I need to make an overhead arm, I already have a thin wall aluminum tube and I just need to fabricate a mount for it. I’ll probably make a provisional mount that clips onto the riving knife like before. The tubing I’m working with definitely will need adapters, so that’s another one for the 3D printer instead of messing around with tape and 10 dollar fittings.

    The other thing is the current hose splitter I have kind of sucks, not literally. Too much suction is directed into the main dust chute off the saw and that’s not needed as much since the 4100 generates plenty of airflow. What I’m going to end up doing is using the 3D printer to make a venturi injector so the airflow from the saw will help pull more suction than it does with the current splitter design and it’ll direct more airflow into the overhead guard since the 4100 throws dust out of the chute pretty well.

    The last and kind of sort of optional thing is I am going to try to redo the inside of the 4100, specifically starting with the plastic side of the shroud. I’m going to try to fit something like the Mafell MT55’s airflow channeling into it, so the blade more efficiently throws sawdust out once it gets below. Right now there’s a little bit of dust escaping from where the riving knife is on my ZCI since the gap is huge when I feed aggressively. That should also lead to better airflow. My experience with the Mafell channeling is you can get really efficient airflow.

    I’ll probably redo the stuff I did before with the interior. Right now the 4100 works “good enough” for me. The only places I get dust is a tiny little bit coming out from the rear of the table from where dust is ejected upwards near the riving knife section. Otherwise I’m doing really well with overhead rips and crosscuts, I don’t get any dust coming off the top aside from the end of the cut and that’s dramatically reduced.

    That design looks okay, but I want to have the overhead arm with more clearance and clipped to the right corner of the 4100’s extension. It has that bend, but the double direction change is going to hurt on efficiency. The first is the 180 U turn bend and then there’s a sharp 90… At least that design necks down so the airflow velocity is increased.

    I don’t think I’ve shown what I’ve done with the Jessem rollers with my 4100, I just did a stack of washers and T bolts to mount it directly on the 4100’s fence. I’m thinking of mounting the T track they provide on a subfence but it works so well right now and I can pull them on and off easily enough that I’ve put that off.

    I am also planning on doing a dust collection setup for a drill stand I recently got which I mount a Metabo BE1100 into. Forstner bit chips really, really suck.

    #610553
    Austin
    Pro
    Covington, KY

    Really need to do some moods to our saw. The motor went out on it today while ripping boral. I think the fine dust that that stuff creates killed it. If there was better dc we probably wouldn’t have that problem.

    #610567
    Kamster
    Pro

    @Reflector

    You’ve been busy. With your design do you find the visibility from your position at the front of the saw OK?

    I’m considering blending the design of the 2 different shopnotes overhead dust collectors. The one that I had posted has a way to slide the collector up and down in order to accommodate material of different heights as well as sliding fore and aft. I see what you mean about the extra bend in the path of air flow.

    I’d love to see your Jessem set up too

    #610576

    @Kamster

    Yeah I haven’t had as much time to make as many modifications as I like to the 4100. I should finish the dust shroud I made for a small 7-1/4″ Craftsman miter saw and put photos up for everyone making mods to their Bosch Glides. I’ve been able to get almost dust free cuts with a few pieces of dust here and there by extending the shroud. I just need to make sure it doesn’t get chewed up by modifying the design so it’ll “collapse” when its pressed against tall pieces of wood. I saw an interesting design on the Dewalt Flexvolt miter saw, the deflector is split in half and bent in such a way so that when it contacts wood, it’ll maintain some of the general shape but avoid being cut by the blade. Its surprising what a half inch or inch of extension can do over the stock deflectors on miter saws.

    Front visibility isn’t a problem, I always lift the guard up and measure using a folding ruler up against the fence. The way the guard is setup right now, I just grab the knob that I have on left side of the guard to prevent it from rotating and lift the guard. That tightens the screw down and holds the guard in the “up” position. Holding the same knob and then pushing it down loosens the screw and the guard is free to move.

    My problem is I can’t find any thin, clear plastic material, so I think I will try some clear PLA and vapor polishing it using ethyl acetate (Apparently known as “MEK Subsitute” in some states).

    Pardon the dust, the Jessems haven’t been cleaned off.

    They’re easily installed and removed. When they’re on, I rotate the knob until I feel them loosen up and then pull upwards and rotate back forwards until the T bolt aligns with the top slot of the rail. I start with loosening both knobs first. Installing them back on is just aligning one of the T bolts and then rotating the other side over then loosening them to give some slack and then rotate to tighten, the T bolt will stop against the inside of the rail and then start to tighten. No need to modify the existing fence at all.

    I’m pretty impressed by the locking power of the 4100’s fence, never liked the European style fences that only lock in the front. With the Jessems, a single piece of thin paper’s worth of gap at the rear of the fence and the riving knife biased to one side just a little so it pushes the workpiece against the fence, I don’t worry about kickback at all.

    The only thing I have to worry about is when I rip really long, awkward pieces without support. I’ve been thinking of making a fence extension out of melamine and a small infeed extension so I have an easier time aligning large pieces up.

    #610783
    Kamster
    Pro

    Your Jessem set up looks really good. Something like that Jessem mount could be used for the overhead dust collector in the shopnotes design. Too bad the Jessem is so expensive

    I put up a scan of the dust boot for the 10 inch axial glide in the miter saw forum. The material that I used is stiff and doesn’t need extra reinforcement when the Ridgid shop vac is attached.

    On my 7 1/2 inch miter saw the folding of the dust boot into the blade was a problem with the thinner material that I was using for the boot. I was constantly replacing the boot

    #610785

    @Kamster

    I still don’t want to mount the DC setup on the fence, I’m going to be mounting it on the right extension table so the guard will be relatively “static” no matter how the fence is adjusted, the only time I’ll have to adjust it is when I pull the table out to full length for a 24″ rip. The fence on he 4100 with the T slots is another reason I like the 4100 and from what I hear the REAXX has the same T slots once you pull the panels off.

    IMO the Jessems are worth every dollar when you’re trying to get accurate rips with long material, you don’t really get burning with them and it sucks the material right up to the fence. Better than using featherboards for rips since you end up having to constantly adjust them after each cut and they apply downward pressure.

    I’ll take some photos later of what I did with the 7-1/4″ miter saw, I have some of the pieces folded over on themselves so if they bend, they want to bend outwards. The previous setup I had did have it fold in on itself and get mangled by the blade but only on particularly tall cuts. Now with the U/C shaped fold over, it wants to fold outwards. There are three major pieces, the main piece that has a few cuts in it and forms the sides-off-centers, a single strip that forms the center and a left side strip that prevents loose pieces from escaping off the side where there’s a little less of the boot blocking dust from escaping. I suspect I could get away with even better performance if I use the 3D printer to fabricate some kind of moving suction channel that goes right next to the cut but that’s a project for much, much later and possibly not needed with the current setup I have.

    #610786
    Doobie
    Moderator

    Too bad the Jessem is so expensive

    They’re worth every penny imo. I got them when they first came out and have no regrets. Burnt my old shopmade featherboards in a fire last summer in my backyard, and my Board Buddy’s have quite an artistic looking cobweb formation on them now.

    never liked the European style fences that only lock in the front.

    Same here. I have an Excalibur fence that locks both front and back and I feel totally safe using it.

    #610788
    Doobie
    Moderator

    Too bad the Jessem is so expensive

    They’re worth every penny imo. I got them when they first came out and have no regrets. Burnt my old shopmade featherboards in a fire last summer in my backyard, and my Board Buddy’s have quite an artistic looking cobweb formation on them now.

    I first had the Jessem router fence guides and they are also another amazing Jessem accesory. Look how befier the TS guides are to the router table guides.

    never liked the European style fences that only lock in the front.

    Same here. I have an Excalibur fence that locks both front and back and I feel totally safe using it.

    #610891
    Kamster
    Pro

    @Doobie
    Those Jessem guides do look good. I may have to pull out the Lee Valley gift cards to buy a set.

    Side note: I was given an Excalibur fence but unfortunately not the rails. I’m going to try to set this up on my Delta contractor table saw. What is the width of the square tube that your Excalibur fence sits on?

    @Reflector
    When you have time, it would be great to see the dust shroud on your miter saw. I’ve found it challenging to keep the sides from flexing outward.

    #610900
    Doobie
    Moderator

    Side note: I was given an Excalibur fence but unfortunately not the rails. I’m going to try to set this up on my Delta contractor table saw. What is the width of the square tube that your Excalibur fence sits on?

    It’s not really a square rail. It’s more an edge. I’ll try to get pics and more detail later.

    #610947
    Doobie
    Moderator

    Side note: I was given an Excalibur fence but unfortunately not the rails. I’m going to try to set this up on my Delta contractor table saw. What is the width of the square tube that your Excalibur fence sits on?

    It’s not really a square rail. It’s more an edge. I’ll try to get pics and more detail later.

    Here’s some pics @kamster.

    One of the nifty things I was able to do with this type of fence rail, which it basically a T-slotted aluminum extrusion that has a piece of metal fastened on the top that the fence rollers glide on, is to make a hanging harness of sorts for my Unisaw’s magnetic switchbox to slide on. I can basically position my switch anywhere along my front rail for where I feel it is easiest and safest to reach for for whatever operation I’m executing. Cool eh?

    #610973
    Kamster
    Pro

    @Doobie

    Thanks for the photos. That makes total sense and it is a very cool set up. I still have the Delta T2 fence and rail but I am going to have to find an aluminum extrusion that works with the Excalibur

    Having the ability to move the switchbox is a great idea.

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 76 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
queries. 0.539 seconds