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4100 Dust Control Modifications

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  • #424458

    Another 4100 topic, since this is ongoing for me as a project:

    Instead of getting the FastCap Saw Stache material, I had some plastic door sweeps ($3/ft vs the Saw Stache at $9-10/ft) and some VHB tape I did the miter slot. I trimmed two segments of brush, both segments were bent to have a curve. One segment I have embedded between the plastic base of the saw and the metal miter angle indicator plate. The other segment has some of the plastic sweep mount segments cut to help it stay in place. I don’t have the additional plastic door sweeps I overlapped on the top bristles so that sawdust couldn’t bypass the gap on them.

    #424462

    This is the fence extension lever and mechanism. Tons of sawdust blows straight out through that area and deposits on the plastic base next to the miter hole. I have two bristle door sweeps on the inside and outside of the saw, with the inside layer having the bristles manipulated so they kind of hug the rod a little. The third plastic door sweep helps the outside layer by reducing the gap so that dust won’t just spew past through the gap between the inside and outside layers.

    #424466

    There’s a fairly huge gap where the motor mounts onto the holding plate and sawblade housing. If I could redesign the 4100, I’d add some of accordion/bellows bib like they have on mills to seal that area and add another to where the housing and table have a gap. You could effectively have 100% below the table dust collection and not require any of the modifications like adding bristles for the tilting cutout on the front or rear. I’ve heard the highest end Dewalt contractor saw has some kind of rubber funnel that goes around the housing and the table and hopefully the GTS1041A REAXX has something like that (Heck selling all of these things as an addon would have me sold already. Cleaning up after the saw sucks, metaphorically and literally)

    Still gotta figure out how I’ll help seal that more for when the motor is in a relatively lowered position. I’m thinking I’ll have to add stuff on the inside of the housing/mount and just have it so there’s only some clearance for the arbor movement. I’m already running into issues with the sliding section where the threaded rod and bevel gears are, since that needs to clear.

    #424471
    madman_us
    Pro
    Palm Springs, CA

    i will keep those ideas in mind. one day i will get the table saw

    "If you're going to do something, do it right the first time"
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    #424473

    @madman_us

    If you get the 4100, do these modifications on the day you get it, you won’t have to clean the surfaces of dust and you can probably do it easier than what I’m going to do for the area where the base mates to the aluminum table. It looks like you could edge in some fairly thick foam weather seal where the table meets the base and most of the issues with dealing with dust leaking over would be solved.

    I finished mostly the left side of the saw with some remainder scraps of the clear plastic door sweeps and a bit of the right (Don’t have photos of that). I’ll just need some tape to seal them together, I’m fine with a few gaps since once I have this complete, most of the airflow will be pulled from the blade housing/motor mount with a few gaps.

    What I’ll probably be doing tomorrow is finding a PVC tee fitting and some exhaust reducers (2-1/8″ is effectively a male end of a 2-1/2″ shopvac hose) to adapt them to three hoses. One reduced hose for the overhead guard (Did some estimates on shipping over the NAINA version of the 4100’s guard and the little hose/fitting splitter, not worth it versus using automotive exhaust reducers and PVC sections). One reduced hose for the bottom where any remaining dust will gather inside the 4100. Both of those I think I’ll be just using pool hose and automotive exhaust reducers to fabricate my own hoses and segments. Then the main flow will be from straight through the tee into the blade housing where it’ll hopefully have better dust containment when I’m done.

    All of these modifications are made with the intent that they’re fully reversible if I need to do anything with the saw. I saw the 4100 on Lumberjocks where the guy used expanding foam to seal the topside and I felt pretty iffy about doing that, not to mention it looked iffy as well. I also wanted to be able to tilt the blade at whim and read the scale without fiddling with anything.

    Now I’m debating if I want to mount some kind of segmented thing in the back for the exhaust cutout or just go with some longer bristle segments.

    #424494
    58Chev
    Pro
    Etobicoke, ON

    E.
    Those are some good mods to try and control the dust from the 4100.
    I posted a video up in EPIC that pitted 4 brands of tables saws and the 4100 was the worst in creating a lot of dust, 4x more than No. 3 on the list.

    “If you don’t pass on the knowledge you have to others, it Dies with you”
    — Glenn Botting

    #424550
    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN
    #424592
    thedude306
    Moderator
    Foam Lake, SK

    Some great mods, this TS is the dust culprit in my shop as well. I did add a plate on the bottom and hooked up to my big DC, it makes a huge difference. I still need to do the sweep options. I saw that spray foam on lumberjocks, and that’s def not my style.

    I saw another guy build a whole new “box” for his saw. Very elegant but a lot of work.

    The above blade DC guard works, but it does impair your sight line of the blade. Takes a bit to get used to.

    Brad T
    Self employed Pro since 2014!!

    #424632
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I remember this topic from earlier this year, I see jponto found the link and yep that’s it. I like how you stuck the stache on the inside around the blade adjustment slot, Really nice and clean looking that way.

    My current old shop vac sucks because it doesn’t much anymore and I’ve been shopping around for a new one, Right now I don’t even have anything on the dust port of the saw. Just a bag and it doesn’t do much at all, I’d really like to do the stache and the plywood base with a port. Even with a shop vac connected to the main port and base port with some stache would be a tremendous improvement for me.

    #424679
    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN

    Some great mods, this TS is the dust culprit in my shop as well. I did add a plate on the bottom and hooked up to my big DC, it makes a huge difference. I still need to do the sweep options. I saw that spray foam on lumberjocks, and that’s def not my style.

    I saw another guy build a whole new “box” for his saw. Very elegant but a lot of work.

    The above blade DC guard works, but it does impair your sight line of the blade. Takes a bit to get used to.

    Did the bottom plate help under shop vac suction or did it require the DC before you saw a difference?

    Jon P.
    Timber Carpentry & Construction
    https://www.facebook.com/timbercarpentry/
    Instagram

    #424927

    Worked on the motor mount/saw housing more. I need to put something on the top to let it freely slide against the table when it tilts. Currently it catches against either the fence extension mechanism’s rod or it catches on the ribbing of the table The saw motor housing is the hardest part since I need to think about how I’ll handle the massive gap when the sawblade is lowered. That gap I could only put about a half inch to an inch on the sides. Otherwise there’s about a 3/8s extension on the bottom. The top is the most problematic area, since I really need something like an accordion bib or sliding segment thing to reduce airflow lost to the gap.

    I noticed a huge difference in airflow before and after, whereas before there was little airflow towards the top of the table. Most of it was around the gap left by the housing and the gap for the motor mount. Now there’s some airflow towards the top of the table when I have the insert pulled out. There’s still tons of wasted airflow by the riving knife still.

    However, that being said, when I had the vacuum on and I blew some sawdust over where insert would normally go and I watched most of the dust flying over it suck straight downwards. That’s with all the gaps I still need to seal. I suspect that if this was done with professional materials (Like an actual full rubber sealing element on the table and the housing/mount as well as something to fully seal the motor mount side) that even at a modest 100 cfm there’d be little dust to deal with.

    The gap on the motor mount is the real killer so far for airflow. Having seen the difference between some of the tracksaws, I think you could conclude that the clearance for the arbor makes a huge difference between “barely works better than a circular saw with a vacuum on the port” vs something like the Mafell and Festool tracksaws (And I think I have to give it to the Mafell since it has a smaller gap for the arbor clearance and it doesn’t have a hole on the side to change the blade)

    I also noticed that the blade has more than an inch of clearance at the bottom of the housing. There’s a transition from the circular duct into the motor mount where there’s a fairly massive burr, in addition to the dip where you get more than an inch of clearance between the teeth of the sawblade and the bottom of the housing/mount. I suspect even a small piece of material placed there to smooth out the curve would probably assist in the dust collection process in a significant manner.

    I’m thinking for the top side, I’ll probably go with something like this (At least the nozzle placement) over the NAINA guard:
    http://lumberjocks.com/projects/46742

    The airflow is more or less directed at the cut so there’d be very little overhead dust escape. After I complete some more of the modifications to the saw I’ll look into that. If both sides stayed movable but the highest side brought up the nozzle, you could get away with thin strip/planing cuts where a ton of dust gets sprayed out usually. At least with one side down, it’d direct most of the airflow to suck up all the dust generated by that kind of cut.

    Edit: I’m more than likely overengineering and overthinking this. I could probably get away with some coroplast (Corrugated plastic) and a rubberized tablecloth to actually build a proper “funnel” instead of trying to make it out of flexible sections of doorsweep.

    #426068
    Kamster
    Pro

    @ Reflector.
    That’s a really nice job with the door sweep and the mods around the blade. Thanks for posting the detailed photos – I’m inspired to work on my 4100 a bit more to improve the dust collection

    #426075
    thedude306
    Moderator
    Foam Lake, SK

    Did the bottom plate help under shop vac suction or did it require the DC before you saw a difference?

    It needs the DC. The shop vac just doesn’t have enough pull.

    All the plate does hooked to the shop vac is prevent the dust from hitting the floor that usually falls out of the saw. The DC actually pulls dust into it. I think the plate alone is worth the effort (as far as sweeping the flor), but I didn’t use it long enough to see if the shop vac would actually clear much build up.

    Brad T
    Self employed Pro since 2014!!

    #426618

    @Kamster

    I’m going to redo the shroud on the housing/motor mount soon, I’m not happy with the current setup with the weather strips. I’m thinking that if I use something flexible (Went from thinking about vinyl tablecloth to some kind of rubberized sheet like those magnetic ones they use on refrigerator magnets) I could get to slide and follow the tilting mechanism but still seal well. I think I can get it to work for the motor mount’s hole too. At least it’ll seal better than what I have right now.

    The saw stache material works better than my door sweeps if you put em on the inside. The door sweeps have some memory and the zero position has the bristles bent where you kind of have to wipe them with your finger to get em to pop back up. I think I might change how I’m going to do this once I seal the housing/motor mount since there will be less dust on the inside of the saw to the point I won’t have to seal the base of the saw as much.

    #438136

    I cut up some 15/32″ plywood yesterday but didn’t have time to post this. There was significantly less dust on the floor and in the air (When you make a bunch of rips you’ll really start to notice the haze in the air). The biggest difference I found was that around the base of the saw, there was significantly less dust on the outside. It looks like all the unsealed sections where I have small gaps still leaks some dust through but its not as bad as it used to be.

    The front looks fairly dusty, but most of that isn’t coming from the section where I put the door sweeps. Only a little of that gets contributed from there. Instead it comes from the gap between the base and the table where the mounting/adjustment bracket at for the motor and the upper part of the tilt mechanism. Fairly straightforward fix, I’ll have to work on the inside and outside to seal some of the gaps.

    Normally the front would have a nice mound of wood chips built up where gray tilt indicator like a fillet. In comparison this isn’t too bad but there’s lots of room for improvement, especially inside the sawblade shroud.

    The rear is a lot better, there’s a no mounds of sawdust. The same gap I left inside the shroud is responsible for most of that dust and it seems a little tiny mound built up inside the plastic base where it meets the table on the inside.

    The sides are surprisingly since normally I’d see a good amount of dust built up in the pocket on the right where the sawblade and blade change wrench stores.

    #438152

    As for the motor mound and sawblade shroud I had left two gaps in because I didn’t have the right material on hand and I realized I wanted to use something more flexible and mount coroplast or some kind of sheet below so I could have the flexible material move like a bib/apron for the tilt function of the sawblade.

    The front where I have a gap due to a lack of flexible pieces is where most of the front dust comes from. With the blade in a relatively low position, there’s enough dust still going to where the gap of the shroud is. Once I put on a new flexible shroud for that, I think that should solve a lot of the dust coming out the front. On a surprisingly helpful note I found that I had less dust on the tabletop as well. I noticed that before I these modifications the amount of airflow between the tabletop and cutout in the table for the insert was relatively low. After this I noticed there was significantly improved flow and I could blow dust in towards the cutout and it’d suck straight down.

    The gap on the motor mount isn’t covered in dust as well. I think that the improved sealing as well as the bottom section I put in made it so more of the suction was diverted from the sides (Left where the motor mount gap is, right where the cut of the sawblade is made) and prevents a lot of dust from escaping once it goes beneath the table.

    On the photo towards the rear of the shroud where there’s a fairly huge gap, I found a small mound of sawdust built up on the plastic base where it has a ledge. Looks like most of the sawdust that used to exit out from the rear got contained fairly well.

    The last photo shows the dust patterns which is where I hypothesized most of the dust escapes and ends up landing on the front of the table.

    At this point I just have to make the modifications I mentioned before about using flexible material on the right shroud and on the top side of the motor where the gap is to reduce the massive gap. Then I’d just have make a guard on top that has a hookup and have that go to a splitter and I think this will make the 4100 significantly better. I didn’t have the characteristic floor of sawdust and there was a relatively small pile compared to what I’d typically end up with.

    #439256

    @Kamster
    @thedude306
    @58Chev
    @jponto07
    @Dabbs

    I just replaced the funky doorsweep stack a day ago and found a flexible shelf liner material that’s closer to a neoprene rubber sheet and figured out a way to cover up the massive gap on the motor side. Looking at the underside of the saw earlier I found that I had significantly less sawdust below from just the doorsweeps and bristles.

    I suspect this will help a lot, I’ve already mentioned in a previous post most of the dust escapes from the huge gaps and I’m going to make a few more modifications to try to cut down on the gaps so most of the airflow will be directed into the shroud at this point.

    Next step is to make an overhead guard/collector but I think I’ll improvise with a vacuum nozzle tied onto one of the sides of the current guard to test out how well it works. I found that you could make a Y adapter using ABS/PVC pipes and some exhaust reducers (2-1/8 is the magic number if you want the male end of a 2.5″ shopvac hose and I believe 2-1/4″ reducers have the ID to allow for the OD of the hose fitting. They also have the OD of a 2″ ABS fitting). More on that later when I get to that.

    #439358

    Well I just did a few test (Some of the 15/32″ scraps, a little less than 4-5 feet worth) cuts after that modification. I think the thing I did in the rear for the tilt of the dust chute* is now kinda pointless after testing the shroud out. I think at this point it’d be just whatever heavier particles that make it past the shroud and the reduced hole next to the motor at this point.

    What I was really surprised by was that fairly large splinter that embedded itself into the shelf liner material. The biggest thing at this point is the overhead collection, I’ve got more of a mess on the top of the table than on the floor. I think that’s a good indicator that this is working really well.

    Then I raised the stand and found one spot (You can see the gap at the front) right below the shroud where it doesn’t fully meet up with the top of the table. That spot was more or less where most of the plume of dust is from and I assume that’s probably where most of the dust on the front side is from. That area next to the fence extension is somewhat hard to seal up and I’ll have to explore using coroplast or something harder like I originally thought about or a larger sliding piece on the shroud.

    *I call it a “cheap man’s stupid saw stasche thing” in my head. I had the material and I wanted to see if it’d really add any improvements but it seems the shroud does most of the work at this point and whatever doesn’t get ejected from the gaps like the table/base gaps and the side of the motor mount.

    #439463
    58Chev
    Pro
    Etobicoke, ON

    @Reflector,
    ThanX for the video.

    How much time have you spent with these mods? I think I would implement some of these if and when I get a new table saw. My current Craftsman has seen way too much wood over the years it would be useless at this point to do anything with it.

    “If you don’t pass on the knowledge you have to others, it Dies with you”
    — Glenn Botting

    #439506
    jponto07
    Moderator
    Bloomington, IN

    @Reflector Where did the shelf liner material come from? Looks like a great option…

    Jon P.
    Timber Carpentry & Construction
    https://www.facebook.com/timbercarpentry/
    Instagram

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